Monday, May 19, 2008

My Old Blog Posts

Back when I wrote this blog before, I had frequented the texaxpolygamy blog. I don't know why but I saved alot of what I wrote on my computer. In looking back at them I thought they were interesting maybe you will too. Here are some...

"Anyone who thinks this is not religious persecution ARE LOST!If Polygamy was not required by our religion, we would not try to live it. End of STORY IF Polygamy was not against the obviously UNCONSTITUTIONAL law, then you could get all the information that you desire about who married who, when, and even speak to them about whether they were "forced" or not. BUT it IS against the law, END of story.

“Jane Doe” [Elissa] wants to make sure that everyone knows that it is not about religion. Who is she kidding? “Jane Doe”[Elissa] and the state of Utah contend that Warren Jeffs “forced” her to have sex. How did he force her? In what way was she forced? How was she threatened? Was she threatened with monetary fine? NO! Was she threatened with imprisonment? NO! Was she threatened with bodily harm? NO! Was she threatened with death? NO! She was told that if she did not stay married to the man she said “I do” to, then she could lose her ability to procreate IN THE NEXT LIFE. What a threat! She was told that she might not be able to be something that no other religion believes is attainable anyway! Now If that isn’t religious I don’t know what is.

I KNOW that she is MORE “forced” to make this complaint, than she ever was “forced” to get married! And this is the STRONGEST case against Warren Jeffs? And he was on the FBI top ten “most wanted”? HELLOOO, anybody in there McFly? Same lies of forced marriage, welfare fraud, and abuse as were claimed in 1953. The funny thing is THOSE ARE AGAINST OUR RELIGION TOO!

mugs- The law was challenged back in 1879, and the Supreme Court ruled that it was "constitutional" based on the theory that they had to have some control on religion, or else there would be people who commit human sacrifice in the name of religion. WHICH IS BOGUS. That equates the family of Jacob as inhumane as the murderous priests of BAAL! Congress should make no law against the FREE EXERCISE of religion. We will live by the constitution, and the bill of rights, and NOT by unconstitutional laws. Our CREATOR gave us this right, NOT the government.

fttc -NICE TRY, but it IS about religious polygamy. How many teenage mothers among monogomists have older men being charged with rape SOLELY on the fact that the girl was under 18? NONE! Haven't you noticed that a judge was debarred, and that policemen were kicked off the force, not for police or judicial misconduct, but for the SOLE reason they had more than one wife!

atari said-"If everyone can wait a couple years, there's not a problem, and no reason for the law to intervene."

Make the girls wait, big deal. BUT the LAW that put Rodney in jail is a Utah state law that was not passed until 2001; AFTER his marriage was performed. That law states that no girl can get married under 18 to a man that is 10 years her senior WITHOUT PERMISSION FROM THE GOVERNMENT. Is this law against underage sex? NO! Only MARRIAGE! Why wouldn't a judge give permission? How did this become a law? (hint: anti-polygamy)

How about Kelly Fischer? would he have been convicted of anything had it not been for polygamy? OF COURSE NOT!

About Welfare "Fraud". Where is it? Why has no one in the FLDS been charged with it? Isnt it rampant as you say it is? OBVIOUSLY NOT. More lies piled on lies.

About boys being dumped in deserts. BOGUS! IF your son refused to live by the rules of the home, refused to come home at night, and ran away often, what would you do? Think hard. These boys wanted to leave, and they were obliged. I'll bet you nickels to $20 bills that every single one of them (who want to) still have contact with their parents, who love them very much.

THEFT OF PROPERY? HELLOOOO? Who did the property belong to? Who do 99.9% of the FLDS people want controlling the property? (I'll give you a hint it's NOT Bruce Wisan) All of these so called "crimes", including polygamy, are not the goal of ALL of you who want to destroy the FLDS. The great crime that you want to stop, is the crime of holding and obeying what we believe to be Gods law's above man's laws. Of course you will never admit that will you?

furnace- the Bible is a book all about people who lived in your definition of cultism. The word " cult" is harmless, unless there is harm to people. It is the anti-cult that is un-American.

I wanted to comment on what gadestring brought up, for it proves that the girls are NOT forced. All three of the scenarios gadestring defined in her post (9/8/2006 12:39 AM) (except the ultimatum/threat part) COMBINED semi-accurately describe EACH of my rebellious sisters. Rebellion and unbecoming contact with boys are always intertwined. “Saving” them, by marrying them, does not work, unless THEY believe it is the RIGHT thing to do. I had several sisters who were rebellious, (one who left, and came back) and they did not get married until they decided to settle down. I remember telling two of them that, as their brother, I was willing to give my life in defense of their virtue. All of the rebellious ones waited until they were over 18, and all but one of the unrebellious ones too, but that is an afterthought. Now, you could offer them all the money in the world to leave the FLDS, and they would not.

In the FLDS, the only reason girls married when they were teenagers, is because THEY wanted to, and making them wait affects no one except them, and their children. Making them wait until 18 means absolutely nothing to the FLDS. It is just a thinly veiled attack on our religion. Just an attempt to LESSEN the dignity of our faith; A way to make our marriages less "good" than yours.

According to 34% (820,000) of ALL teenage girls in the U.S. become pregnant. And a report on states that TWO THIRDS of them were to adult men. I am as disgusted as anyone else about teenage pregnancy to unwed mothers, or any sex without marriage. And I think it is ALWAYS the mans responsibility. But MARRIAGE by teenagers is rarely, if ever, attacked, unless it is associated with religious polygamy.

atari-In the FLDS, there is no urgency to marry at any age. The only reason for marriage is for moral FAMILY creation, and ETERNAL happiness. THAT is the goal, that is what we were taught in public and in private by Warren Jeffs, and Rulon Jeffs, and Leroy S Johnson. Sex is not the goal in our religion, an eternal and mortal family that is pleasing to God is. The age of consent to MARRY is 16 in Utah, and most other states. Utah had to ADD that extra religious polygamy persecuting law requiring the GOVERNMENT to approve marriages under 18. THAT is the law that Rodney Holm was convicted of. MARRIAGE to a girl 10 years his junior. And of course they couldnt convict him of that without proving they were married, which convicted him of bigamy also. Had there NOT been a MARRIAGE ceremony, that case would not have lasted a day.

I will acknowledge that statutory rape should be more widely prosecuted, IF there is no wedding, IF the parents do not approve, and IF the girl does not want to marry. The cases you speak of do not fit that bill, in the least. The monogomist relations that do fit that criteria are NEVER prosecuted. IF YOU will acknowlege that Polygamy, in and of itself, is not abuse, then you might start to see. I still would bet nickels to $20 bills that "Jane Doe" [Elissa] has had a thousand times much more pressure to testify against Uncle Warren than she ever did from him to get married.

The thing I dont understand, from my prospective, is the cloudy headed assumption that girls lose their freedom if they become wives and mothers. Are you not free now? For every Caroline Blackmore Jessop, there are 400 women like my mother, free to leave, but have less than a zero desire to. I know that many of the certified teachers, accountants, and registered nurses in the FLDS had both a college education and a career AFTER getting married and having children. And I bet even YOU would agree that raising children is the greatest career in the world.

gad-The law of chastity is the same as it was as taught by Uncle Rulon, and Uncle Roy, but the law is not as absolute as you state. Like food, libido can do more harm than good, if not self regulated. All I was ever taught was constraint is to the man, and not necessarily to the woman.

Brigham Young said: "The man that enters into this order by the prompting of passion, and not with a view to honor God and carry out his purposes, the curse of God will rest upon him, and that which he seems to have will be taken from him and given to those that act according to principle. Remember it." (JD 9:36)

As for child bearing, I guess I cannot reason with the idea that anyone would NOT want to bring Gods children to earth. One of my mothers had over 16 and she often lamented not having more!

Atari, and gad-The age difference is not new in "Christian" monogomy either. You just put blinders on instead of facing it. The only thing that has changed is YOUR society, where marriage is not necessary first.The truth is there have been very very few marriages at all in the last 4 years. Candi and Ruth [and Elissa] were both married previously, under the direction of Uncle Rulon. Though the ceremonies were performed by Uncle Warren. fttc keeps saying that Uncle Roy, and Uncle Rulon said they wouldn't do it anymore, but they married under 18's WAY WAY more than Uncle Warren has in the last 4 years.

Atari- Your argument is based on the argument that Polygny in and of itself is abusive to women, which is bogus. It is fact that before the Roman Empire, All societies practiced it, all the way back to Adam.

Atari-Your background, and the drive by media, makes your skin crawl when it comes to girls and Warren Jeffs. I can understand that. You have very little more respect for a great man named Leroy S Johnson. But ultimately it is a fight between truth and lies, for me.

Atari-What I was saying was that you had no interest in us, or our religion, before you saw us in the news, and the news only reports through the eyes of "mainstream" Americans, and get their information from apostates. You could not fathom a man having a dozen wives and that being a "moral" thing to do. SO you think you hold the moral high ground before you read past the headline. True?

Leroy S Johnson was a very kind, revered, and magnanimous leader of the FLDS church. He died in 1986. 99% of the people who are feeding the media now about how terrible Warren Jeffs is hold Uncle Roy in very high regard. They claim that our religion has been hijacked by Warren Jeffs, or some other man. But if you had read the headlines (And there were quite a few) back in Uncle Roy’s day, you would probably have the same opinion of him as you have of Warren Jeffs. There were people on food stamps in Uncle Roy’s day. There were young men working on construction sites. There were Jessop’s marrying Barlow’s. There were accidental deaths among children in his day. He taught the "one man" rule in his day. There were many men 'kicked out' in his day. And (for you the most appalling) there were definitely girls under 18 getting married to older men in his day.

I contend that these were acceptable and GOOD things in the sight of God. AND benefit innocent children.The religion has not changed, only people and the opposition has. This is the difference between truth, and lie, for me.

atari-How did you hear about the large houses? And why did you become so involved? The bogus news. But you still feel like the anti-polygamy laws are just, and that our religion is bogus. That is what I am saying. I am not saying you should agree that it is the right way. I am just saying that those who are giving you your information of MORE marriages, and other "terribleness" by Warren still think rather highly of Uncle Roy. I am saying they cannot have it both ways. I have more respect for the 5 of you who never knew Uncle Roy or Warren than for the other 5000 who did, (OK, slight exaggeration) and still hate him. There is no in between for me. If it was true then, it is true now.

.atari-I don’t know if I want to explain. You seem sinister to me; pretending to be curious, but only far enough to use the info to call in the military. Phishing is what they call it. Besides, it is just about the difference between me and others who are on my side as far as freedom of marriage, but are on your side in hating Warren Jeffs. It has nothing to do with you.

fttc-I have known Warren Jeffs very well, for a long time. My defense of him is not blind. Do you not want the FLDS people to STOP following him? Your un-hatred for him doesn’t go that far does it?

4:03(silicon wafers)-I do not know what Uncle Roy said to individuals in private meetings, but I know what Uncle Rulon did. I am not sidestepping, I just hold what Uncle Rulon did in higher esteem than what Winston has spread around since his apostacy. That is simple, and obvious. Question all you want. but dont try to force, or even expect anyone else to.

atari said-"If Pedophilia and Abandonment of children is not a tenant of your faith, don't embrace it, encourage it, practice it, allow it." I dont, and neither does Warren Jeffs. Your sources of otherwise are tainted by lies.

mugs-Despite what you have heard, there has been no "date" given. For even the angels in heaven know not the time. But there have been prophesies. And none of them will go unfulfilled. My religion is as plausible as yours, if not more so. I do want to see you with our Savior in the Millenial Reign, and I believe all that can purify themselves of sin can be there. I make no claim to be already worthy. Who can? Also dont believe these lies that Uncle Roy thought President Young was "off his rocker"

mugs-Just so you dont think I deny the truth, I give a word about the April 2004 exodus prophesy. It was invented by some anti-FLDS. We found out about it the same way you did, by noticing the Cameras, and reading the paper. Same with the Y2K, the 2002 Olympics, and the old "gather at the garden", and "gather at Berry Knoll" stuff.

Fact: Warren Jeffs has never said he would not be caught.

Fact: If Warren Jeffs was wearing shorts and T-shirt I definately excuse him because he was in hiding from religious persecution.
Fact: It is O.K. for the FLDS to own red cars. It is bright red clothing that is taboo.
Fact: Girls do wear pants quite often, but usually under the dress. Besides, it was a disguise also.
Fact: Warren Jeffs used an assumed name to buy his contact lenses. He had no illegal ID

Fact: Leroy S Johnson was imprisoned in 1953, John Y Barlow was imprisoned in 1944, John Taylor died in hiding from the "law", Brigham Young was put in jail in 1875, Joseph Smith in 1838, and in 1844 when an armed mob killed him and his brother, for which no one was prosecuted. ALL FOR LIVING THEIR RELIGION. It is amazing in this society today, when harlotry, adultery, sodomy, and abortion, are all considered rights to the people. But if someone engages in performing a marriage for Religious reasons it becomes a crime so bad you can attain to the FBI top ten most wanted criminals.

Fact: This "underage" rule is only applied to polygamy, it is far more rampant among monogomists, yet ignored (and there is rarely a marriage.) Admit it, you only want the girls to wait until 18 because you hope they might "get smart" and leave. 12 out of the 13 of my married sisters were over 18. And They felt it a burden to wait!

Fact: There is has never been, or ever will be fear of Warren Jeffs forcing women or men to be FLDS, no one will leave just because he was put in jail.I am very grateful that Uncle Warren is somewhat safe. Please Keep up the heavy armed guards, there are men who have threatened his life. If it were possible, I would gladly take Warren Jeffs place behind bars. Gladly!

I just wonder what will happen if they find him innocent. Will the facts, or will public outcry decide his fate? What new charges will they file? What new law will they create? Thou shalt not be FLDS in the USA? (like they did in MO in 1830's and the Utah Territory in 1880's)

fttc- the FLDS do not communicate because they are not believed. It is rather pointless. The anti-FLDS are the REASON the FLDS are in the news.

OAS-I have heard stories of girls as young as 13 getting married, but that hasn’t happened since (long before my father was born). The youngest girl I know of getting married in my lifetime is 14, and that was extremely rare and under very special circumstaces. Many girls were "forced" to wait until they were 18 or older. In fact THE OVERWHELMING MAJORITY of girls have waited until at least 18.

I grew up FLDS, and I noticed that the girls who married young were amazingly sweet and mature, and every girl I knew wanted to get married long before they were married, even Candi and Ruth [and even Elissa]. I saw them both when they were happily married. It was a desire for divorce and pressure from Flora, Pennie and other "activists", that created their claim of being forced.

That is a claim "after the fact". (meaning: I thought it was a wonderfully good thing to do at the time, but now that I left, I have discovered how dumb I used to be and must have been forced) They chose just like my sisters did, my mothers did, and everyone else did. No one is forced.

OAS- I really appreciate your desire to understand. To answer your question of "are there any other choices?" and "The Prophet" has a revelation as to who the Lord wants a girl to marry, is this correct?"I can answer your questions together. The choices in a girls life are not "other", I have never met a girl, in the FLDS or out, that did not want to get married at some point. That POINT is the key. SHE decides that point. In the FLDS we believe that dating is guessing, and often results in promiscuity. It is also unneccessary, the Prophet can guide you to what God wants, and the man who can bless you. Sometimes the girl has been impressed who she should marry, sometimes her parents were, but girls do not get married in the FLDS until they decide they want to, their parents decide it is in her best interest, and then they go and ask the Prophet, and they all agree on who. Believe me, we love our children as much as you do or anyone else does.There have been cases of girls saying no to the Prophet's choice, and there have been cases of the parents saying no to the marriage because they did not feel right about it. When that is the case, the marriage does not happen and they try again another day. They are not threatened with damnation or dismissed from the community. I ask you, what is more important to you, your career or your child? What would you choose?

Seemed rather frustrated didnt I?

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