We were born knowing the difference between right and wrong at a basic level. Even as toddlers we know what is the right and what is the wrong way to treat others. Yet any who have done wrong must have justified it on some level. No one can honestly say that you did wrong knowingly and yet not willingly. The more you do wrong, the more tolerant you are to yourself and others doing it in the future. The more you do right, the more you realize what IS right and what is wrong.
But what is good? What is right? We have been taught in America that “freedom” is good, and that limiting your freedom is “bad” But is it good to use your freedom to harm another, or yourself? Is it bad to NOT be that free? This is the questions in my mind as I try to understand the people who run to the aid of the dissident from the FLDS faith. By their own admission they feel they are rescuing them from some sort of abuse. But what is the abuse that the so-called “lost boys” suffered? What was the “bad” that they had been subjected to? In all reality for the great majority of them, the only thing they were subjected to has been what the religion considered “good”, in fact almost all of the “good/abuse” they were subject to, most common sense folk and religions call “good”; selflessness, learning, personal responsibility and virtue. They were for the most part required to abstain from the entertainment of television, movies, suggestive and loud “music”, alcohol, drugs, and inappropriate mingling with girls.
They left the religion because of that horrid “abuse” called “strict religion”. Poor babies! Help them! Shelter them! Give them pacifiers and point at their evil parents and religious leaders and tell them “Oh, we will save you from those “bad” things. We will give you your “freedom” from “strict”. Unwilling to strive for religious righteousness, they sure aren’t too much “competition” for those who are.
I met with a couple of my former FLDS brothers and their former FLDS wives, (lost boys is quite an insult) and a cousin the other day. They were telling me how much the “help” some of the boys who ditched the FLDS community to escape “strict” and were living in the house off the bluff has not been as good as many believe. My cousin said it has made life much more difficult for some of those guys to give them such a free ride. He said it “ruined” them. All it was for them was a place to hang out with minimal supervision, schooling was required at first, but most of them were not in school anyway. Many had problems with drugs and alcohol, and have a hard time getting a job. I do hope the best for those guys, that they have a great life of their own choosing, but they shouldn’t be coddled in extra special ways simply because they are from the FLDS, and they definitely shouldn’t be continuously told how “bad” their family and religion was. Apparently some had even been told that their parents will be punished if they try to contact them. That is way beyond ridiculous.
In our society called America, where freedom is guaranteed by the Constitution, a document of written laws defining what the Federal Government can and cannot do, there are groups and sub groups of people. The founders believed that the larger the government, the greatest amount of freedom should be given, and the rights of individuals to govern themselves and their children should be where the strictest rules and infringements of “rights” should take place. That is what self government is all about.
Showing posts with label lost boys. Show all posts
Showing posts with label lost boys. Show all posts
Wednesday, December 31, 2008
Sunday, August 24, 2008
How to "SAVE" an FLDS girl
Four years ago a sixteen year old girl from the FLDS church contacted her eighteen year old brother. Her brother who along with her “boyfriend” had apostatized from the church and moved to Hurricane Utah. They had a dilemma, her mother was being unreasonable.
All she wanted was to have fun for crying out loud, and her mother recently got her in trouble for underage drinking and being out way into the night, and finally after only a couple times caught at the bachelor "lost boy" party house in Hurricane Utah, called the police. The police caught her in a car in the middle of the night and gave this girl a ticket. Before the Moccasin, Arizona judge the mother swore out a restraining order against the brother to keep him from driving the twenty miles to Short Creek and picking up his sister to take her to his all male party house as was done several times before.
So what did the poor brother and sister do? This girl was given the phone number to the all knowing savior Flora Jessop. Flora had one of her cronies from Hurricane Utah contact the girl and her sidekick with the same name, and pick them up late in the evening in January 2004. When her daughter went missing way into the night this girls mother was frantic.
Meanwhile, toting two news crews along with her, Flora Jessop drove up from Phoenix, Arizona and picked up these two girls. “Smile big for the camera and tell them you are fleeing a forced marriage, I will do the rest” she reassured them. “I don’t want to marry an old man… or something like that” her friend said to the television camera and the stupefied audience.
“Then they loaded up the truck and moved to Beverly’s”
“Hills that is, swimming pools, movie stars”
Mike Watkiss, the hero.
When the girls mother was completely beside herself the next morning, the brother at the party house said he knew nothing, and actually, he didn’t. O where would this mother find her “party girl”? She phoned everyone and everywhere, including her eldest son who had left the church years before and had been somewhat close to the family when they lived in Salt Lake before 2001. He did see her, ON TV!
Meanwhile, back at the ranch in her new “safe house” in Phoenix, you know the buddy of Flora’s house who only had one sixteen-year-old boy living with her. Flora then explained to the girls that they HAD to tell Arizona CPS that their fathers molested them, beat them, and were going to force them into a marriage with old men. She told them that they faced being murdered by their families if they were ever caught. This they told CPS down to the letter, and when CPS asked the girl how she know this, she said “Flora told me” (Only that part didn’t make the affidavit the judge saw) "All is cool young ladies, you are now free to paaartteeeee! Woo! woo!"
In the next few days, with nerves frazzled, the girls mother was beside herself with what to do, this was her baby girl, her last one at home. Her son from Salt Lake promised to “help” all he could and so he and his wife Joni drove to Phoenix. The next thing this mother who ate, drank, and slept by the phone received was what shocked her the most; charges by the state of Arizona against her and her husband for child abuse. Her father was charges with sexually assaulting her, and physically dragging her across the room, and the "immanent threat" of marriage. And her mother was charged with accessory. The “helpful” brother Carl John Holm had signed the papers agreeing with the allegations.
It took several months and many 300 mile trips by the girls parents before they were exonerated. And when the judge signed that, she also signed a motion for FLORA JESSOP to have NO FURTHER CONTACT with the girl.
O that was easy, Flora knew, give the girls who had now joined up with Joni Holm’s daughter Megan, a car, cell phone, and a couple hundred bucks. AND THEN HOLD A PRESS CONFERENCE. “We don’t know where they are” said Flora and Joni each in front of the capital building in Phoenix. “The state of Arizona has failed to protect these kids, and they have run away again” CPS in Arizona still had temporary custody of the girls, but because they were at Flora’s “safe house” they had run away. CPS “tried” to find them.
And thankfully, said the entire United States press corp. they turned up at Carl and Joni Holm’s house in Sandy Utah a few weeks later. “Safe at last” CPS in Arizona had temporary custody, and never closed the case until she turned 18.
Although the girls’ mother refused to sign over custody to her son and his wife, she [edit WAS NOT ALLOWED TO STOP THE GIRL FROM STAYING] in Salt Lake, although in open rebellion to the rules of the “new” mother for a year and a half, when she turned 18. Finally in June of 2005 she was able to join her party brother and get drunk and have the boy she “loved” dump her after a one night stand, and another boy getting her drunk at a party and taking advantage of her. Joni told the tabloids “She fled back to Polygamy”
FREE AT LAST, now she was a true American girl. My sister, Fawn Holm
On a side note, our sister who is just younger than Fawn and was constantly berated by her and the boys of the neighborhood (who all ended up "lost"), wrote a letter to the prophet, and was praying night and day to her God to bless her and her sister. While Fawn is in Boston today, rescued from the "brainwashing" by Dr Phil, and safe shacking up with her boyfriend and living hand to mouth; this sister is a mother of the most beautiful baby you will never see. She is married to a young man whose honor and virtue and work ethic are unmatched anywhere on earth.
So who escaped what? Who is saved from what?
All she wanted was to have fun for crying out loud, and her mother recently got her in trouble for underage drinking and being out way into the night, and finally after only a couple times caught at the bachelor "lost boy" party house in Hurricane Utah, called the police. The police caught her in a car in the middle of the night and gave this girl a ticket. Before the Moccasin, Arizona judge the mother swore out a restraining order against the brother to keep him from driving the twenty miles to Short Creek and picking up his sister to take her to his all male party house as was done several times before.
So what did the poor brother and sister do? This girl was given the phone number to the all knowing savior Flora Jessop. Flora had one of her cronies from Hurricane Utah contact the girl and her sidekick with the same name, and pick them up late in the evening in January 2004. When her daughter went missing way into the night this girls mother was frantic.
Meanwhile, toting two news crews along with her, Flora Jessop drove up from Phoenix, Arizona and picked up these two girls. “Smile big for the camera and tell them you are fleeing a forced marriage, I will do the rest” she reassured them. “I don’t want to marry an old man… or something like that” her friend said to the television camera and the stupefied audience.
“Then they loaded up the truck and moved to Beverly’s”
“Hills that is, swimming pools, movie stars”
Mike Watkiss, the hero.
When the girls mother was completely beside herself the next morning, the brother at the party house said he knew nothing, and actually, he didn’t. O where would this mother find her “party girl”? She phoned everyone and everywhere, including her eldest son who had left the church years before and had been somewhat close to the family when they lived in Salt Lake before 2001. He did see her, ON TV!
Meanwhile, back at the ranch in her new “safe house” in Phoenix, you know the buddy of Flora’s house who only had one sixteen-year-old boy living with her. Flora then explained to the girls that they HAD to tell Arizona CPS that their fathers molested them, beat them, and were going to force them into a marriage with old men. She told them that they faced being murdered by their families if they were ever caught. This they told CPS down to the letter, and when CPS asked the girl how she know this, she said “Flora told me” (Only that part didn’t make the affidavit the judge saw) "All is cool young ladies, you are now free to paaartteeeee! Woo! woo!"
In the next few days, with nerves frazzled, the girls mother was beside herself with what to do, this was her baby girl, her last one at home. Her son from Salt Lake promised to “help” all he could and so he and his wife Joni drove to Phoenix. The next thing this mother who ate, drank, and slept by the phone received was what shocked her the most; charges by the state of Arizona against her and her husband for child abuse. Her father was charges with sexually assaulting her, and physically dragging her across the room, and the "immanent threat" of marriage. And her mother was charged with accessory. The “helpful” brother Carl John Holm had signed the papers agreeing with the allegations.
It took several months and many 300 mile trips by the girls parents before they were exonerated. And when the judge signed that, she also signed a motion for FLORA JESSOP to have NO FURTHER CONTACT with the girl.
O that was easy, Flora knew, give the girls who had now joined up with Joni Holm’s daughter Megan, a car, cell phone, and a couple hundred bucks. AND THEN HOLD A PRESS CONFERENCE. “We don’t know where they are” said Flora and Joni each in front of the capital building in Phoenix. “The state of Arizona has failed to protect these kids, and they have run away again” CPS in Arizona still had temporary custody of the girls, but because they were at Flora’s “safe house” they had run away. CPS “tried” to find them.
And thankfully, said the entire United States press corp. they turned up at Carl and Joni Holm’s house in Sandy Utah a few weeks later. “Safe at last” CPS in Arizona had temporary custody, and never closed the case until she turned 18.
Although the girls’ mother refused to sign over custody to her son and his wife, she [edit WAS NOT ALLOWED TO STOP THE GIRL FROM STAYING] in Salt Lake, although in open rebellion to the rules of the “new” mother for a year and a half, when she turned 18. Finally in June of 2005 she was able to join her party brother and get drunk and have the boy she “loved” dump her after a one night stand, and another boy getting her drunk at a party and taking advantage of her. Joni told the tabloids “She fled back to Polygamy”
FREE AT LAST, now she was a true American girl. My sister, Fawn Holm
On a side note, our sister who is just younger than Fawn and was constantly berated by her and the boys of the neighborhood (who all ended up "lost"), wrote a letter to the prophet, and was praying night and day to her God to bless her and her sister. While Fawn is in Boston today, rescued from the "brainwashing" by Dr Phil, and safe shacking up with her boyfriend and living hand to mouth; this sister is a mother of the most beautiful baby you will never see. She is married to a young man whose honor and virtue and work ethic are unmatched anywhere on earth.
So who escaped what? Who is saved from what?
Wednesday, July 23, 2008
Who am I?
I have published this blog to tell you my side of the story. The true one.
Who am I? A Victim?
I had an adorable wife, gorgeous little children, brothers, sisters, parents, load’s of extended family, almost innumerable amount of friends, a cozy home, and a job I loved. But in a matter of ten seconds, I lost them all.
All of them.
Everything.
With the calmest and quietest of voices, a great man said to me “You have no Priesthood”; which I already knew. To describe the experience closest is to calmly walk up, have a cannon pointed at your chest, and fired. My ability to walk, and speak, stayed with me long enough to load some of my belongings in my little van, and drive away, ...barely.
Am I a victim? Of a crime? Only if you call justice a crime; only if you call all choices that are painful, bad ones. I don’t, because I deserved it. I earned it. The loss that I feel, the absolute death of soul that I have felt, the pain that hurt me the very most, is the loss of the confidence of my best friend, Warren Steed Jeffs.
Anyone who has lost the greatest job they ever had, I know how they feel.
Anyone who has lost their own home, I know how they feel.
Anyone who has had close friends and family avoid you, I know how they feel.
Anyone who has lost their entire family of cousins, nieces, nephews, aunts and uncles, brothers, sisters, parents, and grandparents all in an instant, like watching them climb into a bus and watch the bus drive over a cliff, and be left alone on the dirt road wondering why, knowing it was you who pulled the brake line. I know how they feel.
Anyone who has left their adorable, loving wife sobbing on the couch, gathered with her little ones, and to never see or hear from her again, I know how they feel.
Anyone who has had a child hold on to their neck, tightly, and then lost that child, I know how they feel.
Anyone who has stood looking at the empty spot where their van containing everything they owned was parked only an hour before, three days after losing everything else, I know how they feel.
Anyone who loves their parents desperately, but dreads the visit because it will only be another agonizing goodbye, I know how they feel.
Anyone who has had hurt so bad in their heart that they prayed to God to let them die, somehow, to release the pain, I know how they feel.
The pain, the longing for the grave, the fierce hell that I felt, and still feel at times, is because I love those who I am not worthy of.
I know what it is like to lose your soul.
But here is the truth that no one else will tell you. IT WAS MY OWN FAULT. I know it, God knows it, Warren Jeffs knew it, and now YOU know it. The blame is on no one but myself. I must answer for what I have done. I am the reason I am not home in the FLDS Church with my family, and no one else is. I did what I knew would take me out of what I know is heaven on earth.
I was a member of the FLDS Church, a group of people of which to me there is no comparison. The unity, the love, and the effort of purity of that people are the greatest in the world. I have met a lot of people, I travel all over the country, some do come close, but there are none who compare. Ladies who are angels in every sense of the word, dignified men who would work day and night on your home for nothing and ask only to do more; a people who desire God’s will and nothing else, and a determined goal unlike any other in the world, and that is to become Zion, the pure in heart, here and now; a group of pure fathers, with pure mothers, and pure children; under the direction of one prophet; striving to become a community where the angels in heaven, and Jesus Christ Himself would want to live.
I was in their way; and others were in their way.
Some people who leave the FLDS called it tyranny to obey. They feel they have "escaped". I guess to those raised in heaven, the requirement to do good when you don’t want to is a tremendous burden. But are they victims? When the only thing they seek to escape is heaven and their testimony of it?
Some people who were asked to leave call it torture to not be allowed to stay and interfere with the effort. They want you to think they were cast out for no good reason, which is a lie, are they victims? I am not a victim of anything but my own actions. And neither are they.
I believe in God, the Omnipotent Creator of the Universe, and I believe that He was born into this world and died on the cross for our sins, to give us the resurrection and the power to repent. I believe in His justice, and His mercy, that He is the judge of us all, and anytime we blame anyone for what we experience, we blame Him. He loves us, each individually, and He has a reward for us according to our ability to overcome our sins, a reward far beyond our imaginations.
Keeping Sweet is just that, it is a smile in our trial. It is the effort of prayer, forgiveness, repentance, humility, hope, obedience, and pure love; to never let an outside influence adjust our trust in God; and to trust Him, completely, absolutely, and without exception; to look to Him, and He alone, for solace and courage. Then we will learn to be worthy to be lifted up at the last day, even you, and even me; Saint, Jew, Gentile, Negro, and Oriental; Atheist, Buddhist, Muslim, Catholic, Protestant, and Mormon. God loves us without exception, but He will reward us not only by His love for us, but by our ability to love Him enough to be just like Him, and obey Him all the time, no matter what, no matter who wants to stop us, no matter what we live through.
I feel very compelled to tell you the very difficult time I have in writing this blog. I have a difficult time because I love those who hate Warren Jeffs. I have no desire to put them down in any way. I wish nothing for them that I do not want for myself. I only write things against them to stop them from hurting the innocent and keep those who want to believe the truth from believing their lies.
When I think of those who have become filled with apostasy, whose rage is blinding and whose greatest fear is the whole truth, I think of an angry child with matches, who catch themselves on fire. They may light things on fire and hurt the innocent they hate, but it is they who are covered in gasoline. I forgive and feel sorry for them.
I may be a fool, I may be a coward, but let it never be said of me that he did not forgive all!
I have said things on this blog that I didn’t want to. I have written things in emails, on blogs, and even in this post that I probably shouldn’t have. Sometimes I fee like Peter who made a great error with his sword when the soldiers came, and then soon made the opposite error standing at the fire. I have shown my weakness, and shown it to all.
But to all who read this, I sincerely plead, that with your hearts, your desires, your anxiety to do something. Do not give me advice on how to treat my best friend, or my best friend advice on how to treat me! Forgive us. Turn all of your feelings to love, and do something to BUILD UP OTHERS!
Thank You FATHER!
Who am I? A Victim?
I had an adorable wife, gorgeous little children, brothers, sisters, parents, load’s of extended family, almost innumerable amount of friends, a cozy home, and a job I loved. But in a matter of ten seconds, I lost them all.
All of them.
Everything.
With the calmest and quietest of voices, a great man said to me “You have no Priesthood”; which I already knew. To describe the experience closest is to calmly walk up, have a cannon pointed at your chest, and fired. My ability to walk, and speak, stayed with me long enough to load some of my belongings in my little van, and drive away, ...barely.
Am I a victim? Of a crime? Only if you call justice a crime; only if you call all choices that are painful, bad ones. I don’t, because I deserved it. I earned it. The loss that I feel, the absolute death of soul that I have felt, the pain that hurt me the very most, is the loss of the confidence of my best friend, Warren Steed Jeffs.
Anyone who has lost the greatest job they ever had, I know how they feel.
Anyone who has lost their own home, I know how they feel.
Anyone who has had close friends and family avoid you, I know how they feel.
Anyone who has lost their entire family of cousins, nieces, nephews, aunts and uncles, brothers, sisters, parents, and grandparents all in an instant, like watching them climb into a bus and watch the bus drive over a cliff, and be left alone on the dirt road wondering why, knowing it was you who pulled the brake line. I know how they feel.
Anyone who has left their adorable, loving wife sobbing on the couch, gathered with her little ones, and to never see or hear from her again, I know how they feel.
Anyone who has had a child hold on to their neck, tightly, and then lost that child, I know how they feel.
Anyone who has stood looking at the empty spot where their van containing everything they owned was parked only an hour before, three days after losing everything else, I know how they feel.
Anyone who loves their parents desperately, but dreads the visit because it will only be another agonizing goodbye, I know how they feel.
Anyone who has had hurt so bad in their heart that they prayed to God to let them die, somehow, to release the pain, I know how they feel.
The pain, the longing for the grave, the fierce hell that I felt, and still feel at times, is because I love those who I am not worthy of.
I know what it is like to lose your soul.
But here is the truth that no one else will tell you. IT WAS MY OWN FAULT. I know it, God knows it, Warren Jeffs knew it, and now YOU know it. The blame is on no one but myself. I must answer for what I have done. I am the reason I am not home in the FLDS Church with my family, and no one else is. I did what I knew would take me out of what I know is heaven on earth.
I was a member of the FLDS Church, a group of people of which to me there is no comparison. The unity, the love, and the effort of purity of that people are the greatest in the world. I have met a lot of people, I travel all over the country, some do come close, but there are none who compare. Ladies who are angels in every sense of the word, dignified men who would work day and night on your home for nothing and ask only to do more; a people who desire God’s will and nothing else, and a determined goal unlike any other in the world, and that is to become Zion, the pure in heart, here and now; a group of pure fathers, with pure mothers, and pure children; under the direction of one prophet; striving to become a community where the angels in heaven, and Jesus Christ Himself would want to live.
I was in their way; and others were in their way.
Some people who leave the FLDS called it tyranny to obey. They feel they have "escaped". I guess to those raised in heaven, the requirement to do good when you don’t want to is a tremendous burden. But are they victims? When the only thing they seek to escape is heaven and their testimony of it?
Some people who were asked to leave call it torture to not be allowed to stay and interfere with the effort. They want you to think they were cast out for no good reason, which is a lie, are they victims? I am not a victim of anything but my own actions. And neither are they.
I believe in God, the Omnipotent Creator of the Universe, and I believe that He was born into this world and died on the cross for our sins, to give us the resurrection and the power to repent. I believe in His justice, and His mercy, that He is the judge of us all, and anytime we blame anyone for what we experience, we blame Him. He loves us, each individually, and He has a reward for us according to our ability to overcome our sins, a reward far beyond our imaginations.
Keeping Sweet is just that, it is a smile in our trial. It is the effort of prayer, forgiveness, repentance, humility, hope, obedience, and pure love; to never let an outside influence adjust our trust in God; and to trust Him, completely, absolutely, and without exception; to look to Him, and He alone, for solace and courage. Then we will learn to be worthy to be lifted up at the last day, even you, and even me; Saint, Jew, Gentile, Negro, and Oriental; Atheist, Buddhist, Muslim, Catholic, Protestant, and Mormon. God loves us without exception, but He will reward us not only by His love for us, but by our ability to love Him enough to be just like Him, and obey Him all the time, no matter what, no matter who wants to stop us, no matter what we live through.
I feel very compelled to tell you the very difficult time I have in writing this blog. I have a difficult time because I love those who hate Warren Jeffs. I have no desire to put them down in any way. I wish nothing for them that I do not want for myself. I only write things against them to stop them from hurting the innocent and keep those who want to believe the truth from believing their lies.
When I think of those who have become filled with apostasy, whose rage is blinding and whose greatest fear is the whole truth, I think of an angry child with matches, who catch themselves on fire. They may light things on fire and hurt the innocent they hate, but it is they who are covered in gasoline. I forgive and feel sorry for them.
I may be a fool, I may be a coward, but let it never be said of me that he did not forgive all!
I have said things on this blog that I didn’t want to. I have written things in emails, on blogs, and even in this post that I probably shouldn’t have. Sometimes I fee like Peter who made a great error with his sword when the soldiers came, and then soon made the opposite error standing at the fire. I have shown my weakness, and shown it to all.
But to all who read this, I sincerely plead, that with your hearts, your desires, your anxiety to do something. Do not give me advice on how to treat my best friend, or my best friend advice on how to treat me! Forgive us. Turn all of your feelings to love, and do something to BUILD UP OTHERS!
Thank You FATHER!
Tuesday, June 3, 2008
Top 5 lies needs a 6th
After my perusal of the comments from many an article on the news sites I would like to refute one big gargantuan lie.
LOST BOYS
The assertion is they are gotten rid of to keep them from "competing for brides"
I already addressed this in these posts:
http://fldsview.blogspot.com/2008/05/lost-and-found-boys.html
http://fldsview.blogspot.com/2008/05/few-questions-from-bored.html
http://fldsview.blogspot.com/2008/05/flds-mother.html
Regarding the underage boys who did leave, this is the truth:
They were not abandoned without resources
Their parents did want to keep them home or at least in a safe environment.
Their parents were never "required" to abandon them.
All of them left on their own.
Regarding the majority who were young adult men who left:
Most left on their own without being asked, but some were asked out
They had jobs and income, except the freeloaders who had enough training to get one.
They KNEW what the requirements were to stay, and did not do them.
The overwhelming majority of "Lost Boys" were adults.
The term "Lost Boy" was coined by Shem and Dan Fischer, who were seeking ways to sue the church and the UEP out of vindictive hatred. They gathered the "boys" through word of mouth to Salt Lake for a party and a payday; they came and sat on the steps of the Capital building in Salt Lake City. Out of their so-called "400" they found six who were as bitter as they were. Most of the rest are now insulted by the term.
This "Lost Boy" Lawsuit was one of four lawsuits filed at the same time against Warren Jeffs and the United Effort Plan (A trust with no assets except the homes and property secured for members in good standing in the FLDS church, in an effort to live in the "United Order" or "All things in Common")
The cost of defending these lawsuits, filed in the court of a fairly new feminist judge named Denise Lindberg, who I believe was previously an attorney for Dan Fischer’s businesses; would have been extremely burdensome to the FLDS people.
The judge has since confiscated all of the homes and property and handed it over to her feduciary Bruce Wisan. To "protect" the "beneficiaries" of the UEP from Warren Jeffs.
His personal "fees" have given him ownership of the large Harker Ranch in Beryl, Utah that was donated to the church several years before. He is now seeking to steal the YFZ property in Texas as well.
LOST BOYS
The assertion is they are gotten rid of to keep them from "competing for brides"
I already addressed this in these posts:
http://fldsview.blogspot.com/2008/05/lost-and-found-boys.html
http://fldsview.blogspot.com/2008/05/few-questions-from-bored.html
http://fldsview.blogspot.com/2008/05/flds-mother.html
Regarding the underage boys who did leave, this is the truth:
They were not abandoned without resources
Their parents did want to keep them home or at least in a safe environment.
Their parents were never "required" to abandon them.
All of them left on their own.
Regarding the majority who were young adult men who left:
Most left on their own without being asked, but some were asked out
They had jobs and income, except the freeloaders who had enough training to get one.
They KNEW what the requirements were to stay, and did not do them.
The overwhelming majority of "Lost Boys" were adults.
The term "Lost Boy" was coined by Shem and Dan Fischer, who were seeking ways to sue the church and the UEP out of vindictive hatred. They gathered the "boys" through word of mouth to Salt Lake for a party and a payday; they came and sat on the steps of the Capital building in Salt Lake City. Out of their so-called "400" they found six who were as bitter as they were. Most of the rest are now insulted by the term.
This "Lost Boy" Lawsuit was one of four lawsuits filed at the same time against Warren Jeffs and the United Effort Plan (A trust with no assets except the homes and property secured for members in good standing in the FLDS church, in an effort to live in the "United Order" or "All things in Common")
The cost of defending these lawsuits, filed in the court of a fairly new feminist judge named Denise Lindberg, who I believe was previously an attorney for Dan Fischer’s businesses; would have been extremely burdensome to the FLDS people.
The judge has since confiscated all of the homes and property and handed it over to her feduciary Bruce Wisan. To "protect" the "beneficiaries" of the UEP from Warren Jeffs.
His personal "fees" have given him ownership of the large Harker Ranch in Beryl, Utah that was donated to the church several years before. He is now seeking to steal the YFZ property in Texas as well.
Monday, May 19, 2008
My Old Blog Posts
Back when I wrote this blog before, I had frequented the texaxpolygamy blog. I don't know why but I saved alot of what I wrote on my computer. In looking back at them I thought they were interesting maybe you will too. Here are some...
"Anyone who thinks this is not religious persecution ARE LOST!If Polygamy was not required by our religion, we would not try to live it. End of STORY IF Polygamy was not against the obviously UNCONSTITUTIONAL law, then you could get all the information that you desire about who married who, when, and even speak to them about whether they were "forced" or not. BUT it IS against the law, END of story.
“Jane Doe” [Elissa] wants to make sure that everyone knows that it is not about religion. Who is she kidding? “Jane Doe”[Elissa] and the state of Utah contend that Warren Jeffs “forced” her to have sex. How did he force her? In what way was she forced? How was she threatened? Was she threatened with monetary fine? NO! Was she threatened with imprisonment? NO! Was she threatened with bodily harm? NO! Was she threatened with death? NO! She was told that if she did not stay married to the man she said “I do” to, then she could lose her ability to procreate IN THE NEXT LIFE. What a threat! She was told that she might not be able to be something that no other religion believes is attainable anyway! Now If that isn’t religious I don’t know what is.
I KNOW that she is MORE “forced” to make this complaint, than she ever was “forced” to get married! And this is the STRONGEST case against Warren Jeffs? And he was on the FBI top ten “most wanted”? HELLOOO, anybody in there McFly? Same lies of forced marriage, welfare fraud, and abuse as were claimed in 1953. The funny thing is THOSE ARE AGAINST OUR RELIGION TOO!
mugs- The law was challenged back in 1879, and the Supreme Court ruled that it was "constitutional" based on the theory that they had to have some control on religion, or else there would be people who commit human sacrifice in the name of religion. WHICH IS BOGUS. That equates the family of Jacob as inhumane as the murderous priests of BAAL! Congress should make no law against the FREE EXERCISE of religion. We will live by the constitution, and the bill of rights, and NOT by unconstitutional laws. Our CREATOR gave us this right, NOT the government.
fttc -NICE TRY, but it IS about religious polygamy. How many teenage mothers among monogomists have older men being charged with rape SOLELY on the fact that the girl was under 18? NONE! Haven't you noticed that a judge was debarred, and that policemen were kicked off the force, not for police or judicial misconduct, but for the SOLE reason they had more than one wife!
atari said-"If everyone can wait a couple years, there's not a problem, and no reason for the law to intervene."
Make the girls wait, big deal. BUT the LAW that put Rodney in jail is a Utah state law that was not passed until 2001; AFTER his marriage was performed. That law states that no girl can get married under 18 to a man that is 10 years her senior WITHOUT PERMISSION FROM THE GOVERNMENT. Is this law against underage sex? NO! Only MARRIAGE! Why wouldn't a judge give permission? How did this become a law? (hint: anti-polygamy)
How about Kelly Fischer? would he have been convicted of anything had it not been for polygamy? OF COURSE NOT!
About Welfare "Fraud". Where is it? Why has no one in the FLDS been charged with it? Isnt it rampant as you say it is? OBVIOUSLY NOT. More lies piled on lies.
About boys being dumped in deserts. BOGUS! IF your son refused to live by the rules of the home, refused to come home at night, and ran away often, what would you do? Think hard. These boys wanted to leave, and they were obliged. I'll bet you nickels to $20 bills that every single one of them (who want to) still have contact with their parents, who love them very much.
THEFT OF PROPERY? HELLOOOO? Who did the property belong to? Who do 99.9% of the FLDS people want controlling the property? (I'll give you a hint it's NOT Bruce Wisan) All of these so called "crimes", including polygamy, are not the goal of ALL of you who want to destroy the FLDS. The great crime that you want to stop, is the crime of holding and obeying what we believe to be Gods law's above man's laws. Of course you will never admit that will you?
furnace- the Bible is a book all about people who lived in your definition of cultism. The word " cult" is harmless, unless there is harm to people. It is the anti-cult that is un-American.
I wanted to comment on what gadestring brought up, for it proves that the girls are NOT forced. All three of the scenarios gadestring defined in her post (9/8/2006 12:39 AM) (except the ultimatum/threat part) COMBINED semi-accurately describe EACH of my rebellious sisters. Rebellion and unbecoming contact with boys are always intertwined. “Saving” them, by marrying them, does not work, unless THEY believe it is the RIGHT thing to do. I had several sisters who were rebellious, (one who left, and came back) and they did not get married until they decided to settle down. I remember telling two of them that, as their brother, I was willing to give my life in defense of their virtue. All of the rebellious ones waited until they were over 18, and all but one of the unrebellious ones too, but that is an afterthought. Now, you could offer them all the money in the world to leave the FLDS, and they would not.
In the FLDS, the only reason girls married when they were teenagers, is because THEY wanted to, and making them wait affects no one except them, and their children. Making them wait until 18 means absolutely nothing to the FLDS. It is just a thinly veiled attack on our religion. Just an attempt to LESSEN the dignity of our faith; A way to make our marriages less "good" than yours.
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According to teenpregnancy.org 34% (820,000) of ALL teenage girls in the U.S. become pregnant. And a report on mafamily.org states that TWO THIRDS of them were to adult men. I am as disgusted as anyone else about teenage pregnancy to unwed mothers, or any sex without marriage. And I think it is ALWAYS the mans responsibility. But MARRIAGE by teenagers is rarely, if ever, attacked, unless it is associated with religious polygamy.
atari-In the FLDS, there is no urgency to marry at any age. The only reason for marriage is for moral FAMILY creation, and ETERNAL happiness. THAT is the goal, that is what we were taught in public and in private by Warren Jeffs, and Rulon Jeffs, and Leroy S Johnson. Sex is not the goal in our religion, an eternal and mortal family that is pleasing to God is. The age of consent to MARRY is 16 in Utah, and most other states. Utah had to ADD that extra religious polygamy persecuting law requiring the GOVERNMENT to approve marriages under 18. THAT is the law that Rodney Holm was convicted of. MARRIAGE to a girl 10 years his junior. And of course they couldnt convict him of that without proving they were married, which convicted him of bigamy also. Had there NOT been a MARRIAGE ceremony, that case would not have lasted a day.
I will acknowledge that statutory rape should be more widely prosecuted, IF there is no wedding, IF the parents do not approve, and IF the girl does not want to marry. The cases you speak of do not fit that bill, in the least. The monogomist relations that do fit that criteria are NEVER prosecuted. IF YOU will acknowlege that Polygamy, in and of itself, is not abuse, then you might start to see. I still would bet nickels to $20 bills that "Jane Doe" [Elissa] has had a thousand times much more pressure to testify against Uncle Warren than she ever did from him to get married.
The thing I dont understand, from my prospective, is the cloudy headed assumption that girls lose their freedom if they become wives and mothers. Are you not free now? For every Caroline Blackmore Jessop, there are 400 women like my mother, free to leave, but have less than a zero desire to. I know that many of the certified teachers, accountants, and registered nurses in the FLDS had both a college education and a career AFTER getting married and having children. And I bet even YOU would agree that raising children is the greatest career in the world.
gad-The law of chastity is the same as it was as taught by Uncle Rulon, and Uncle Roy, but the law is not as absolute as you state. Like food, libido can do more harm than good, if not self regulated. All I was ever taught was constraint is to the man, and not necessarily to the woman.
Brigham Young said: "The man that enters into this order by the prompting of passion, and not with a view to honor God and carry out his purposes, the curse of God will rest upon him, and that which he seems to have will be taken from him and given to those that act according to principle. Remember it." (JD 9:36)
As for child bearing, I guess I cannot reason with the idea that anyone would NOT want to bring Gods children to earth. One of my mothers had over 16 and she often lamented not having more!
Atari, and gad-The age difference is not new in "Christian" monogomy either. You just put blinders on instead of facing it. The only thing that has changed is YOUR society, where marriage is not necessary first.The truth is there have been very very few marriages at all in the last 4 years. Candi and Ruth [and Elissa] were both married previously, under the direction of Uncle Rulon. Though the ceremonies were performed by Uncle Warren. fttc keeps saying that Uncle Roy, and Uncle Rulon said they wouldn't do it anymore, but they married under 18's WAY WAY more than Uncle Warren has in the last 4 years.
Atari- Your argument is based on the argument that Polygny in and of itself is abusive to women, which is bogus. It is fact that before the Roman Empire, All societies practiced it, all the way back to Adam.
Atari-Your background, and the drive by media, makes your skin crawl when it comes to girls and Warren Jeffs. I can understand that. You have very little more respect for a great man named Leroy S Johnson. But ultimately it is a fight between truth and lies, for me.
Atari-What I was saying was that you had no interest in us, or our religion, before you saw us in the news, and the news only reports through the eyes of "mainstream" Americans, and get their information from apostates. You could not fathom a man having a dozen wives and that being a "moral" thing to do. SO you think you hold the moral high ground before you read past the headline. True?
Leroy S Johnson was a very kind, revered, and magnanimous leader of the FLDS church. He died in 1986. 99% of the people who are feeding the media now about how terrible Warren Jeffs is hold Uncle Roy in very high regard. They claim that our religion has been hijacked by Warren Jeffs, or some other man. But if you had read the headlines (And there were quite a few) back in Uncle Roy’s day, you would probably have the same opinion of him as you have of Warren Jeffs. There were people on food stamps in Uncle Roy’s day. There were young men working on construction sites. There were Jessop’s marrying Barlow’s. There were accidental deaths among children in his day. He taught the "one man" rule in his day. There were many men 'kicked out' in his day. And (for you the most appalling) there were definitely girls under 18 getting married to older men in his day.
I contend that these were acceptable and GOOD things in the sight of God. AND benefit innocent children.The religion has not changed, only people and the opposition has. This is the difference between truth, and lie, for me.
atari-How did you hear about the large houses? And why did you become so involved? The bogus news. But you still feel like the anti-polygamy laws are just, and that our religion is bogus. That is what I am saying. I am not saying you should agree that it is the right way. I am just saying that those who are giving you your information of MORE marriages, and other "terribleness" by Warren still think rather highly of Uncle Roy. I am saying they cannot have it both ways. I have more respect for the 5 of you who never knew Uncle Roy or Warren than for the other 5000 who did, (OK, slight exaggeration) and still hate him. There is no in between for me. If it was true then, it is true now.
.atari-I don’t know if I want to explain. You seem sinister to me; pretending to be curious, but only far enough to use the info to call in the military. Phishing is what they call it. Besides, it is just about the difference between me and others who are on my side as far as freedom of marriage, but are on your side in hating Warren Jeffs. It has nothing to do with you.
fttc-I have known Warren Jeffs very well, for a long time. My defense of him is not blind. Do you not want the FLDS people to STOP following him? Your un-hatred for him doesn’t go that far does it?
4:03(silicon wafers)-I do not know what Uncle Roy said to individuals in private meetings, but I know what Uncle Rulon did. I am not sidestepping, I just hold what Uncle Rulon did in higher esteem than what Winston has spread around since his apostacy. That is simple, and obvious. Question all you want. but dont try to force, or even expect anyone else to.
atari said-"If Pedophilia and Abandonment of children is not a tenant of your faith, don't embrace it, encourage it, practice it, allow it." I dont, and neither does Warren Jeffs. Your sources of otherwise are tainted by lies.
mugs-Despite what you have heard, there has been no "date" given. For even the angels in heaven know not the time. But there have been prophesies. And none of them will go unfulfilled. My religion is as plausible as yours, if not more so. I do want to see you with our Savior in the Millenial Reign, and I believe all that can purify themselves of sin can be there. I make no claim to be already worthy. Who can? Also dont believe these lies that Uncle Roy thought President Young was "off his rocker"
mugs-Just so you dont think I deny the truth, I give a word about the April 2004 exodus prophesy. It was invented by some anti-FLDS. We found out about it the same way you did, by noticing the Cameras, and reading the paper. Same with the Y2K, the 2002 Olympics, and the old "gather at the garden", and "gather at Berry Knoll" stuff.
Fact: Warren Jeffs has never said he would not be caught.
Fact: If Warren Jeffs was wearing shorts and T-shirt I definately excuse him because he was in hiding from religious persecution.
Fact: It is O.K. for the FLDS to own red cars. It is bright red clothing that is taboo.
Fact: Girls do wear pants quite often, but usually under the dress. Besides, it was a disguise also.
Fact: Warren Jeffs used an assumed name to buy his contact lenses. He had no illegal ID
Fact: Leroy S Johnson was imprisoned in 1953, John Y Barlow was imprisoned in 1944, John Taylor died in hiding from the "law", Brigham Young was put in jail in 1875, Joseph Smith in 1838, and in 1844 when an armed mob killed him and his brother, for which no one was prosecuted. ALL FOR LIVING THEIR RELIGION. It is amazing in this society today, when harlotry, adultery, sodomy, and abortion, are all considered rights to the people. But if someone engages in performing a marriage for Religious reasons it becomes a crime so bad you can attain to the FBI top ten most wanted criminals.
Fact: This "underage" rule is only applied to polygamy, it is far more rampant among monogomists, yet ignored (and there is rarely a marriage.) Admit it, you only want the girls to wait until 18 because you hope they might "get smart" and leave. 12 out of the 13 of my married sisters were over 18. And They felt it a burden to wait!
Fact: There is has never been, or ever will be fear of Warren Jeffs forcing women or men to be FLDS, no one will leave just because he was put in jail.I am very grateful that Uncle Warren is somewhat safe. Please Keep up the heavy armed guards, there are men who have threatened his life. If it were possible, I would gladly take Warren Jeffs place behind bars. Gladly!
I just wonder what will happen if they find him innocent. Will the facts, or will public outcry decide his fate? What new charges will they file? What new law will they create? Thou shalt not be FLDS in the USA? (like they did in MO in 1830's and the Utah Territory in 1880's)
fttc- the FLDS do not communicate because they are not believed. It is rather pointless. The anti-FLDS are the REASON the FLDS are in the news.
OAS-I have heard stories of girls as young as 13 getting married, but that hasn’t happened since (long before my father was born). The youngest girl I know of getting married in my lifetime is 14, and that was extremely rare and under very special circumstaces. Many girls were "forced" to wait until they were 18 or older. In fact THE OVERWHELMING MAJORITY of girls have waited until at least 18.
I grew up FLDS, and I noticed that the girls who married young were amazingly sweet and mature, and every girl I knew wanted to get married long before they were married, even Candi and Ruth [and even Elissa]. I saw them both when they were happily married. It was a desire for divorce and pressure from Flora, Pennie and other "activists", that created their claim of being forced.
That is a claim "after the fact". (meaning: I thought it was a wonderfully good thing to do at the time, but now that I left, I have discovered how dumb I used to be and must have been forced) They chose just like my sisters did, my mothers did, and everyone else did. No one is forced.
OAS- I really appreciate your desire to understand. To answer your question of "are there any other choices?" and "The Prophet" has a revelation as to who the Lord wants a girl to marry, is this correct?"I can answer your questions together. The choices in a girls life are not "other", I have never met a girl, in the FLDS or out, that did not want to get married at some point. That POINT is the key. SHE decides that point. In the FLDS we believe that dating is guessing, and often results in promiscuity. It is also unneccessary, the Prophet can guide you to what God wants, and the man who can bless you. Sometimes the girl has been impressed who she should marry, sometimes her parents were, but girls do not get married in the FLDS until they decide they want to, their parents decide it is in her best interest, and then they go and ask the Prophet, and they all agree on who. Believe me, we love our children as much as you do or anyone else does.There have been cases of girls saying no to the Prophet's choice, and there have been cases of the parents saying no to the marriage because they did not feel right about it. When that is the case, the marriage does not happen and they try again another day. They are not threatened with damnation or dismissed from the community. I ask you, what is more important to you, your career or your child? What would you choose?
Seemed rather frustrated didnt I?
"Anyone who thinks this is not religious persecution ARE LOST!If Polygamy was not required by our religion, we would not try to live it. End of STORY IF Polygamy was not against the obviously UNCONSTITUTIONAL law, then you could get all the information that you desire about who married who, when, and even speak to them about whether they were "forced" or not. BUT it IS against the law, END of story.
“Jane Doe” [Elissa] wants to make sure that everyone knows that it is not about religion. Who is she kidding? “Jane Doe”[Elissa] and the state of Utah contend that Warren Jeffs “forced” her to have sex. How did he force her? In what way was she forced? How was she threatened? Was she threatened with monetary fine? NO! Was she threatened with imprisonment? NO! Was she threatened with bodily harm? NO! Was she threatened with death? NO! She was told that if she did not stay married to the man she said “I do” to, then she could lose her ability to procreate IN THE NEXT LIFE. What a threat! She was told that she might not be able to be something that no other religion believes is attainable anyway! Now If that isn’t religious I don’t know what is.
I KNOW that she is MORE “forced” to make this complaint, than she ever was “forced” to get married! And this is the STRONGEST case against Warren Jeffs? And he was on the FBI top ten “most wanted”? HELLOOO, anybody in there McFly? Same lies of forced marriage, welfare fraud, and abuse as were claimed in 1953. The funny thing is THOSE ARE AGAINST OUR RELIGION TOO!
mugs- The law was challenged back in 1879, and the Supreme Court ruled that it was "constitutional" based on the theory that they had to have some control on religion, or else there would be people who commit human sacrifice in the name of religion. WHICH IS BOGUS. That equates the family of Jacob as inhumane as the murderous priests of BAAL! Congress should make no law against the FREE EXERCISE of religion. We will live by the constitution, and the bill of rights, and NOT by unconstitutional laws. Our CREATOR gave us this right, NOT the government.
fttc -NICE TRY, but it IS about religious polygamy. How many teenage mothers among monogomists have older men being charged with rape SOLELY on the fact that the girl was under 18? NONE! Haven't you noticed that a judge was debarred, and that policemen were kicked off the force, not for police or judicial misconduct, but for the SOLE reason they had more than one wife!
atari said-"If everyone can wait a couple years, there's not a problem, and no reason for the law to intervene."
Make the girls wait, big deal. BUT the LAW that put Rodney in jail is a Utah state law that was not passed until 2001; AFTER his marriage was performed. That law states that no girl can get married under 18 to a man that is 10 years her senior WITHOUT PERMISSION FROM THE GOVERNMENT. Is this law against underage sex? NO! Only MARRIAGE! Why wouldn't a judge give permission? How did this become a law? (hint: anti-polygamy)
How about Kelly Fischer? would he have been convicted of anything had it not been for polygamy? OF COURSE NOT!
About Welfare "Fraud". Where is it? Why has no one in the FLDS been charged with it? Isnt it rampant as you say it is? OBVIOUSLY NOT. More lies piled on lies.
About boys being dumped in deserts. BOGUS! IF your son refused to live by the rules of the home, refused to come home at night, and ran away often, what would you do? Think hard. These boys wanted to leave, and they were obliged. I'll bet you nickels to $20 bills that every single one of them (who want to) still have contact with their parents, who love them very much.
THEFT OF PROPERY? HELLOOOO? Who did the property belong to? Who do 99.9% of the FLDS people want controlling the property? (I'll give you a hint it's NOT Bruce Wisan) All of these so called "crimes", including polygamy, are not the goal of ALL of you who want to destroy the FLDS. The great crime that you want to stop, is the crime of holding and obeying what we believe to be Gods law's above man's laws. Of course you will never admit that will you?
furnace- the Bible is a book all about people who lived in your definition of cultism. The word " cult" is harmless, unless there is harm to people. It is the anti-cult that is un-American.
I wanted to comment on what gadestring brought up, for it proves that the girls are NOT forced. All three of the scenarios gadestring defined in her post (9/8/2006 12:39 AM) (except the ultimatum/threat part) COMBINED semi-accurately describe EACH of my rebellious sisters. Rebellion and unbecoming contact with boys are always intertwined. “Saving” them, by marrying them, does not work, unless THEY believe it is the RIGHT thing to do. I had several sisters who were rebellious, (one who left, and came back) and they did not get married until they decided to settle down. I remember telling two of them that, as their brother, I was willing to give my life in defense of their virtue. All of the rebellious ones waited until they were over 18, and all but one of the unrebellious ones too, but that is an afterthought. Now, you could offer them all the money in the world to leave the FLDS, and they would not.
In the FLDS, the only reason girls married when they were teenagers, is because THEY wanted to, and making them wait affects no one except them, and their children. Making them wait until 18 means absolutely nothing to the FLDS. It is just a thinly veiled attack on our religion. Just an attempt to LESSEN the dignity of our faith; A way to make our marriages less "good" than yours.
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According to teenpregnancy.org 34% (820,000) of ALL teenage girls in the U.S. become pregnant. And a report on mafamily.org states that TWO THIRDS of them were to adult men. I am as disgusted as anyone else about teenage pregnancy to unwed mothers, or any sex without marriage. And I think it is ALWAYS the mans responsibility. But MARRIAGE by teenagers is rarely, if ever, attacked, unless it is associated with religious polygamy.
atari-In the FLDS, there is no urgency to marry at any age. The only reason for marriage is for moral FAMILY creation, and ETERNAL happiness. THAT is the goal, that is what we were taught in public and in private by Warren Jeffs, and Rulon Jeffs, and Leroy S Johnson. Sex is not the goal in our religion, an eternal and mortal family that is pleasing to God is. The age of consent to MARRY is 16 in Utah, and most other states. Utah had to ADD that extra religious polygamy persecuting law requiring the GOVERNMENT to approve marriages under 18. THAT is the law that Rodney Holm was convicted of. MARRIAGE to a girl 10 years his junior. And of course they couldnt convict him of that without proving they were married, which convicted him of bigamy also. Had there NOT been a MARRIAGE ceremony, that case would not have lasted a day.
I will acknowledge that statutory rape should be more widely prosecuted, IF there is no wedding, IF the parents do not approve, and IF the girl does not want to marry. The cases you speak of do not fit that bill, in the least. The monogomist relations that do fit that criteria are NEVER prosecuted. IF YOU will acknowlege that Polygamy, in and of itself, is not abuse, then you might start to see. I still would bet nickels to $20 bills that "Jane Doe" [Elissa] has had a thousand times much more pressure to testify against Uncle Warren than she ever did from him to get married.
The thing I dont understand, from my prospective, is the cloudy headed assumption that girls lose their freedom if they become wives and mothers. Are you not free now? For every Caroline Blackmore Jessop, there are 400 women like my mother, free to leave, but have less than a zero desire to. I know that many of the certified teachers, accountants, and registered nurses in the FLDS had both a college education and a career AFTER getting married and having children. And I bet even YOU would agree that raising children is the greatest career in the world.
gad-The law of chastity is the same as it was as taught by Uncle Rulon, and Uncle Roy, but the law is not as absolute as you state. Like food, libido can do more harm than good, if not self regulated. All I was ever taught was constraint is to the man, and not necessarily to the woman.
Brigham Young said: "The man that enters into this order by the prompting of passion, and not with a view to honor God and carry out his purposes, the curse of God will rest upon him, and that which he seems to have will be taken from him and given to those that act according to principle. Remember it." (JD 9:36)
As for child bearing, I guess I cannot reason with the idea that anyone would NOT want to bring Gods children to earth. One of my mothers had over 16 and she often lamented not having more!
Atari, and gad-The age difference is not new in "Christian" monogomy either. You just put blinders on instead of facing it. The only thing that has changed is YOUR society, where marriage is not necessary first.The truth is there have been very very few marriages at all in the last 4 years. Candi and Ruth [and Elissa] were both married previously, under the direction of Uncle Rulon. Though the ceremonies were performed by Uncle Warren. fttc keeps saying that Uncle Roy, and Uncle Rulon said they wouldn't do it anymore, but they married under 18's WAY WAY more than Uncle Warren has in the last 4 years.
Atari- Your argument is based on the argument that Polygny in and of itself is abusive to women, which is bogus. It is fact that before the Roman Empire, All societies practiced it, all the way back to Adam.
Atari-Your background, and the drive by media, makes your skin crawl when it comes to girls and Warren Jeffs. I can understand that. You have very little more respect for a great man named Leroy S Johnson. But ultimately it is a fight between truth and lies, for me.
Atari-What I was saying was that you had no interest in us, or our religion, before you saw us in the news, and the news only reports through the eyes of "mainstream" Americans, and get their information from apostates. You could not fathom a man having a dozen wives and that being a "moral" thing to do. SO you think you hold the moral high ground before you read past the headline. True?
Leroy S Johnson was a very kind, revered, and magnanimous leader of the FLDS church. He died in 1986. 99% of the people who are feeding the media now about how terrible Warren Jeffs is hold Uncle Roy in very high regard. They claim that our religion has been hijacked by Warren Jeffs, or some other man. But if you had read the headlines (And there were quite a few) back in Uncle Roy’s day, you would probably have the same opinion of him as you have of Warren Jeffs. There were people on food stamps in Uncle Roy’s day. There were young men working on construction sites. There were Jessop’s marrying Barlow’s. There were accidental deaths among children in his day. He taught the "one man" rule in his day. There were many men 'kicked out' in his day. And (for you the most appalling) there were definitely girls under 18 getting married to older men in his day.
I contend that these were acceptable and GOOD things in the sight of God. AND benefit innocent children.The religion has not changed, only people and the opposition has. This is the difference between truth, and lie, for me.
atari-How did you hear about the large houses? And why did you become so involved? The bogus news. But you still feel like the anti-polygamy laws are just, and that our religion is bogus. That is what I am saying. I am not saying you should agree that it is the right way. I am just saying that those who are giving you your information of MORE marriages, and other "terribleness" by Warren still think rather highly of Uncle Roy. I am saying they cannot have it both ways. I have more respect for the 5 of you who never knew Uncle Roy or Warren than for the other 5000 who did, (OK, slight exaggeration) and still hate him. There is no in between for me. If it was true then, it is true now.
.atari-I don’t know if I want to explain. You seem sinister to me; pretending to be curious, but only far enough to use the info to call in the military. Phishing is what they call it. Besides, it is just about the difference between me and others who are on my side as far as freedom of marriage, but are on your side in hating Warren Jeffs. It has nothing to do with you.
fttc-I have known Warren Jeffs very well, for a long time. My defense of him is not blind. Do you not want the FLDS people to STOP following him? Your un-hatred for him doesn’t go that far does it?
4:03(silicon wafers)-I do not know what Uncle Roy said to individuals in private meetings, but I know what Uncle Rulon did. I am not sidestepping, I just hold what Uncle Rulon did in higher esteem than what Winston has spread around since his apostacy. That is simple, and obvious. Question all you want. but dont try to force, or even expect anyone else to.
atari said-"If Pedophilia and Abandonment of children is not a tenant of your faith, don't embrace it, encourage it, practice it, allow it." I dont, and neither does Warren Jeffs. Your sources of otherwise are tainted by lies.
mugs-Despite what you have heard, there has been no "date" given. For even the angels in heaven know not the time. But there have been prophesies. And none of them will go unfulfilled. My religion is as plausible as yours, if not more so. I do want to see you with our Savior in the Millenial Reign, and I believe all that can purify themselves of sin can be there. I make no claim to be already worthy. Who can? Also dont believe these lies that Uncle Roy thought President Young was "off his rocker"
mugs-Just so you dont think I deny the truth, I give a word about the April 2004 exodus prophesy. It was invented by some anti-FLDS. We found out about it the same way you did, by noticing the Cameras, and reading the paper. Same with the Y2K, the 2002 Olympics, and the old "gather at the garden", and "gather at Berry Knoll" stuff.
Fact: Warren Jeffs has never said he would not be caught.
Fact: If Warren Jeffs was wearing shorts and T-shirt I definately excuse him because he was in hiding from religious persecution.
Fact: It is O.K. for the FLDS to own red cars. It is bright red clothing that is taboo.
Fact: Girls do wear pants quite often, but usually under the dress. Besides, it was a disguise also.
Fact: Warren Jeffs used an assumed name to buy his contact lenses. He had no illegal ID
Fact: Leroy S Johnson was imprisoned in 1953, John Y Barlow was imprisoned in 1944, John Taylor died in hiding from the "law", Brigham Young was put in jail in 1875, Joseph Smith in 1838, and in 1844 when an armed mob killed him and his brother, for which no one was prosecuted. ALL FOR LIVING THEIR RELIGION. It is amazing in this society today, when harlotry, adultery, sodomy, and abortion, are all considered rights to the people. But if someone engages in performing a marriage for Religious reasons it becomes a crime so bad you can attain to the FBI top ten most wanted criminals.
Fact: This "underage" rule is only applied to polygamy, it is far more rampant among monogomists, yet ignored (and there is rarely a marriage.) Admit it, you only want the girls to wait until 18 because you hope they might "get smart" and leave. 12 out of the 13 of my married sisters were over 18. And They felt it a burden to wait!
Fact: There is has never been, or ever will be fear of Warren Jeffs forcing women or men to be FLDS, no one will leave just because he was put in jail.I am very grateful that Uncle Warren is somewhat safe. Please Keep up the heavy armed guards, there are men who have threatened his life. If it were possible, I would gladly take Warren Jeffs place behind bars. Gladly!
I just wonder what will happen if they find him innocent. Will the facts, or will public outcry decide his fate? What new charges will they file? What new law will they create? Thou shalt not be FLDS in the USA? (like they did in MO in 1830's and the Utah Territory in 1880's)
fttc- the FLDS do not communicate because they are not believed. It is rather pointless. The anti-FLDS are the REASON the FLDS are in the news.
OAS-I have heard stories of girls as young as 13 getting married, but that hasn’t happened since (long before my father was born). The youngest girl I know of getting married in my lifetime is 14, and that was extremely rare and under very special circumstaces. Many girls were "forced" to wait until they were 18 or older. In fact THE OVERWHELMING MAJORITY of girls have waited until at least 18.
I grew up FLDS, and I noticed that the girls who married young were amazingly sweet and mature, and every girl I knew wanted to get married long before they were married, even Candi and Ruth [and even Elissa]. I saw them both when they were happily married. It was a desire for divorce and pressure from Flora, Pennie and other "activists", that created their claim of being forced.
That is a claim "after the fact". (meaning: I thought it was a wonderfully good thing to do at the time, but now that I left, I have discovered how dumb I used to be and must have been forced) They chose just like my sisters did, my mothers did, and everyone else did. No one is forced.
OAS- I really appreciate your desire to understand. To answer your question of "are there any other choices?" and "The Prophet" has a revelation as to who the Lord wants a girl to marry, is this correct?"I can answer your questions together. The choices in a girls life are not "other", I have never met a girl, in the FLDS or out, that did not want to get married at some point. That POINT is the key. SHE decides that point. In the FLDS we believe that dating is guessing, and often results in promiscuity. It is also unneccessary, the Prophet can guide you to what God wants, and the man who can bless you. Sometimes the girl has been impressed who she should marry, sometimes her parents were, but girls do not get married in the FLDS until they decide they want to, their parents decide it is in her best interest, and then they go and ask the Prophet, and they all agree on who. Believe me, we love our children as much as you do or anyone else does.There have been cases of girls saying no to the Prophet's choice, and there have been cases of the parents saying no to the marriage because they did not feel right about it. When that is the case, the marriage does not happen and they try again another day. They are not threatened with damnation or dismissed from the community. I ask you, what is more important to you, your career or your child? What would you choose?
Seemed rather frustrated didnt I?
Thursday, May 8, 2008
Warren Jeffs, my best friend
I wrote this post over a year ago, just after Warren Jeffs was arrested:
Warren Jeffs is the head of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ, of Latter Day Saints. He wasn’t always the leader; in fact only 10 years ago he had no position in the Church other than that of one over his family, although he was head of the private school in Sandy, Utah. He was ordained by his father, Rulon T Jeffs, the head of the church, to the second highest office in the Church in December 1997, at the passing of then First Councilor Parley Harker. He held that position until his father’s death in September 2002, when he became the head of the church.
I first met Warren Jeffs when I began going to Alta Academy, where he was the principal. He had been teaching there since he graduated from high school in 1973. All of the teachers at Alta were volunteers, and only a few of them were actually certified. To make a living Warren Jeffs was a very good accountant, and also a computer programmer. He created quite a few computer accounting programs for businesses in Utah and Idaho. I remember very well the times in class when he would be interrupted by a phone call from one of his customers. Once in Geography class, I remember him speaking to a customer in Idaho over a speakerphone, and they offered him any amount to fly up there to fix their system. We, the students of the class started to cheer him on. “Go, go!” (We did this get out of getting home work) But he very carefully explained to the customer on the phone how to fix the problem. “Darn!”
If anyone is wondering if that school really taught anything, I can only tell you my story. I grew up in Salt Lake City and went to school in the public school system until I graduated from the sixth grade at Lincoln Elementary, its highest grade. I was on the honor roll, and I had the second highest score in our whole school on the Achievement Test at the end of the year. My first year at Alta, I averaged a C, and got my first F. That school was tough.
Some will tell you that Warren Jeffs beat the children, etc. but come on. My little brother got the paddle once when he attacked his teacher in second grade. I had a yardstick broken over my desk in seventh grade when I wouldn't be quiet. But neither of these were done by Warren Jeffs.
One thing that I remember most about Mr. Jeffs (as we called him) besides his sincere empathy; was his incredible ability to remember names. Many times after morning devotional class, one of the younger grades would go up with their teacher to show him some of their work. He would shake their hands and call each of them by name, almost every single one, even when there was a hundred. He was always pleasant and soft spoken, you could hear in his voice the anxiousness he had for all of us to succeed.
Warren Jeffs became a master teacher, unlike anyone I have ever met. He wasn’t mesmerizing, he wasn’t captivating, he was engaging, and he could teach any subject. I have an uncle who was in College who told me that in when he was in his 3rd level calculus class, he got stumped on a certain problem, and Mr. Jeffs explained it to him better than his college professor did. In teaching Math, History, and Geography classes he would always engage the whole class, and make us ask and aswer tough questions. In Geography, he would read the Salt Lake Tribune to us and make us take notes. My senior year he was my teacher in all but two classes. He taught most of the math classes, all of the History classes, Accounting, Geography, Computer Science, Chemistry, Chorus, among others. Some periods he would actually teach two subjects at once. There were only three of us in Algebra II, so he taught it with his Algebra I class.
Warren Jeffs was well known in the FLDS church during his father’s Presidency, he became the featured speaker on the subjects that his father wanted taught in Priesthood meetings, and in Church. At the very first Conference after the death of Leroy S Johnson, Warren sang the solo part of the Hymn “The Seer”. He had been teaching the Elders class in Salt Lake City from before I first started going to the meetings. I remember very well how precise he was in teaching the lessons, he would always make sure that he only taught what he was taught, and never taught anything that he could not verify, he never took credit for himself. He relied heavily on the words in the sermons of his father, Leroy S Johnson, John Y Barlow, John Taylor, Brigham Young, and Joseph Smith. He bore the strongest testimony of the words of the Prophets as being the inspired word of God to the people, from Adam to Rulon T Jeffs.
Each school day that Uncle Rulon was in Salt Lake, Mr. Jeffs would meet with and ask him what he wanted taught to the students that day.
Warren Jeffs helped to develop a computer program that could search every word in a text document, and he headed up a project to put all of the sermons in the Journal of Discourses, the sermons of Leroy S Johnson, and the sermons of Rulon T Jeffs; into a computer database that could be searched by keywords..
Using this searching ability, Warren Jeffs, at the request of his father, put several books together to teach the people about the religion that Joseph Smith brought forth. “In Light and Truth”, and “History of Priesthood Succession” are the central ones. These were meant to teach the FLDS people, but seeing that many ex members have them, I write this here. If you want to read these, or listen to any of his recorded history classes, contact Jay Beswick, (desciple of Flora Jessop) he seems very interested in flaunting the fact that he has them, maybe he will share.
I want to tell why there are so many recorded sermons by Warren Jeffs. All of them that Jay has are history classes, and young ladies classes from when he was the Principal at Alta Academy. When I was in 10th grade I was in “Ancient Priesthood History” Class and we were required to take notes and rewrite them and create a notebook of what we learned, this was the only “work” in the class. Sometimes students would be absent from the class and so they could not take notes, and before he started recording the classes, you would have to copy someone else’s notes into your own. He was very hesitant to record his voice, but when some of the students started bringing mini tape recorders into the class, he decided it would curb the unfair advantage of absenteeism, and began recording the classes. This spread from History, to Geography, and finally to Devotional; all of the classes that required note taking. At the request of the teachers and the direction of his father, he started a “Teachers History” Class that he taught once a week in the evenings, beginning in 1995 and ending in 1998 when the school closed. This was an effort to teach the teachers how to teach history, and to teach the Priesthood interpretation of history from Adam up to this day. That interpretation is that the Prophets did what God wanted them to do. ALL of them.
I didn’t want to address the fact that Warren Jeffs is considered by most people as a criminal. It is almost impossible for my brain to even comprehend that he was on the FBI top ten most wanted list. I still have to think about it over and over again. Are you kidding me? Warren Jeffs? The guy who couldn’t harm a flea? The skinny guy who got his ribs cracked by my brother while playing dare base? They guy who Mrs. Wall [Elissa's mother, our English teacher] beat in an arm wrestle? FBI TOP TEN? When am I going to wake up? I need somebody to slap me. Hello?
So what is the crime? Performing weddings? Family counseling? Top Ten? Being the Father to his children and the husband to his wives? FBI MOST WANTED? HELLOO?
It blows the mind. And proves to me the the FLDS church is God's church. And proves to me that Warren is the Prophet, for you can see how right something is by how hated and lied about it is.
I know for a fact that the lost boys, Shem Fischer, Jane Doe [Elissa Wall], and most especially his nephew Brent, are plain lying. I was there. Dan Fischer, (the rich dentist who helped the seniors buy Warren Jeffs a brand new van), is behind all four of these lawsuits. They are frivolous, bogus, and that nephew one is absolutely disgusting.
The reason Warren did not fight these lawsuits is obvious to me, knowing the man as I do. There are several obvious reasons. One is the fact that he has no desire to confront his nephew,and his memory induced by a psychiatrist. There are hundreds of witnesses to the times and events around Brent and his uncles who could refute the charges, including Brent’s own brothers and sisters. But who would want to? Uncle Warren had zero desire to ask anyone to go to court and listen to such filthy garbage. He even asked the people to not read the newspapers when the story came out. It is repugnant and appalling.
Another reason [which may have been a bad one in hindsight] was the sheer cost it would put on the FLDS people. Warren Jeffs has no money of his own, all of his substinance comes from the donations of the people. He knew that very well and would rather spend the donations building homes for the people than spending it and going into debt to pay lawyers.
The thought that anyone believes the lawsuits are legitimate is rather insulting to me personally. Not that my integrity is unimpugnable, but realize, just for one minute, that I willingly left my beautiful wife whom I would die for, I left my sweet angelic children who are worth more than all the world to me, and I left all of my wonderful friends and family in the FLDS; because I know that this is the only way for me to gain the integrity that I didn’t have. I would rather die than lie, because I know that God sees and hears everything I do and everything I think. To give up what I have proves how much I know he is innocent.
Warren Jeffs is an innocent man. If he is condemned to the death that his enemies desire, I would gladly take his place. And I have lost more than all of those who are suing him put together have lost. That is how innocent he is. I would bet my life on it.
Warren Jeffs is the head of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ, of Latter Day Saints. He wasn’t always the leader; in fact only 10 years ago he had no position in the Church other than that of one over his family, although he was head of the private school in Sandy, Utah. He was ordained by his father, Rulon T Jeffs, the head of the church, to the second highest office in the Church in December 1997, at the passing of then First Councilor Parley Harker. He held that position until his father’s death in September 2002, when he became the head of the church.
I first met Warren Jeffs when I began going to Alta Academy, where he was the principal. He had been teaching there since he graduated from high school in 1973. All of the teachers at Alta were volunteers, and only a few of them were actually certified. To make a living Warren Jeffs was a very good accountant, and also a computer programmer. He created quite a few computer accounting programs for businesses in Utah and Idaho. I remember very well the times in class when he would be interrupted by a phone call from one of his customers. Once in Geography class, I remember him speaking to a customer in Idaho over a speakerphone, and they offered him any amount to fly up there to fix their system. We, the students of the class started to cheer him on. “Go, go!” (We did this get out of getting home work) But he very carefully explained to the customer on the phone how to fix the problem. “Darn!”
If anyone is wondering if that school really taught anything, I can only tell you my story. I grew up in Salt Lake City and went to school in the public school system until I graduated from the sixth grade at Lincoln Elementary, its highest grade. I was on the honor roll, and I had the second highest score in our whole school on the Achievement Test at the end of the year. My first year at Alta, I averaged a C, and got my first F. That school was tough.
Some will tell you that Warren Jeffs beat the children, etc. but come on. My little brother got the paddle once when he attacked his teacher in second grade. I had a yardstick broken over my desk in seventh grade when I wouldn't be quiet. But neither of these were done by Warren Jeffs.
One thing that I remember most about Mr. Jeffs (as we called him) besides his sincere empathy; was his incredible ability to remember names. Many times after morning devotional class, one of the younger grades would go up with their teacher to show him some of their work. He would shake their hands and call each of them by name, almost every single one, even when there was a hundred. He was always pleasant and soft spoken, you could hear in his voice the anxiousness he had for all of us to succeed.
Warren Jeffs became a master teacher, unlike anyone I have ever met. He wasn’t mesmerizing, he wasn’t captivating, he was engaging, and he could teach any subject. I have an uncle who was in College who told me that in when he was in his 3rd level calculus class, he got stumped on a certain problem, and Mr. Jeffs explained it to him better than his college professor did. In teaching Math, History, and Geography classes he would always engage the whole class, and make us ask and aswer tough questions. In Geography, he would read the Salt Lake Tribune to us and make us take notes. My senior year he was my teacher in all but two classes. He taught most of the math classes, all of the History classes, Accounting, Geography, Computer Science, Chemistry, Chorus, among others. Some periods he would actually teach two subjects at once. There were only three of us in Algebra II, so he taught it with his Algebra I class.
Warren Jeffs was well known in the FLDS church during his father’s Presidency, he became the featured speaker on the subjects that his father wanted taught in Priesthood meetings, and in Church. At the very first Conference after the death of Leroy S Johnson, Warren sang the solo part of the Hymn “The Seer”. He had been teaching the Elders class in Salt Lake City from before I first started going to the meetings. I remember very well how precise he was in teaching the lessons, he would always make sure that he only taught what he was taught, and never taught anything that he could not verify, he never took credit for himself. He relied heavily on the words in the sermons of his father, Leroy S Johnson, John Y Barlow, John Taylor, Brigham Young, and Joseph Smith. He bore the strongest testimony of the words of the Prophets as being the inspired word of God to the people, from Adam to Rulon T Jeffs.
Each school day that Uncle Rulon was in Salt Lake, Mr. Jeffs would meet with and ask him what he wanted taught to the students that day.
Warren Jeffs helped to develop a computer program that could search every word in a text document, and he headed up a project to put all of the sermons in the Journal of Discourses, the sermons of Leroy S Johnson, and the sermons of Rulon T Jeffs; into a computer database that could be searched by keywords..
Using this searching ability, Warren Jeffs, at the request of his father, put several books together to teach the people about the religion that Joseph Smith brought forth. “In Light and Truth”, and “History of Priesthood Succession” are the central ones. These were meant to teach the FLDS people, but seeing that many ex members have them, I write this here. If you want to read these, or listen to any of his recorded history classes, contact Jay Beswick, (desciple of Flora Jessop) he seems very interested in flaunting the fact that he has them, maybe he will share.
I want to tell why there are so many recorded sermons by Warren Jeffs. All of them that Jay has are history classes, and young ladies classes from when he was the Principal at Alta Academy. When I was in 10th grade I was in “Ancient Priesthood History” Class and we were required to take notes and rewrite them and create a notebook of what we learned, this was the only “work” in the class. Sometimes students would be absent from the class and so they could not take notes, and before he started recording the classes, you would have to copy someone else’s notes into your own. He was very hesitant to record his voice, but when some of the students started bringing mini tape recorders into the class, he decided it would curb the unfair advantage of absenteeism, and began recording the classes. This spread from History, to Geography, and finally to Devotional; all of the classes that required note taking. At the request of the teachers and the direction of his father, he started a “Teachers History” Class that he taught once a week in the evenings, beginning in 1995 and ending in 1998 when the school closed. This was an effort to teach the teachers how to teach history, and to teach the Priesthood interpretation of history from Adam up to this day. That interpretation is that the Prophets did what God wanted them to do. ALL of them.
I didn’t want to address the fact that Warren Jeffs is considered by most people as a criminal. It is almost impossible for my brain to even comprehend that he was on the FBI top ten most wanted list. I still have to think about it over and over again. Are you kidding me? Warren Jeffs? The guy who couldn’t harm a flea? The skinny guy who got his ribs cracked by my brother while playing dare base? They guy who Mrs. Wall [Elissa's mother, our English teacher] beat in an arm wrestle? FBI TOP TEN? When am I going to wake up? I need somebody to slap me. Hello?
So what is the crime? Performing weddings? Family counseling? Top Ten? Being the Father to his children and the husband to his wives? FBI MOST WANTED? HELLOO?
It blows the mind. And proves to me the the FLDS church is God's church. And proves to me that Warren is the Prophet, for you can see how right something is by how hated and lied about it is.
I know for a fact that the lost boys, Shem Fischer, Jane Doe [Elissa Wall], and most especially his nephew Brent, are plain lying. I was there. Dan Fischer, (the rich dentist who helped the seniors buy Warren Jeffs a brand new van), is behind all four of these lawsuits. They are frivolous, bogus, and that nephew one is absolutely disgusting.
The reason Warren did not fight these lawsuits is obvious to me, knowing the man as I do. There are several obvious reasons. One is the fact that he has no desire to confront his nephew,and his memory induced by a psychiatrist. There are hundreds of witnesses to the times and events around Brent and his uncles who could refute the charges, including Brent’s own brothers and sisters. But who would want to? Uncle Warren had zero desire to ask anyone to go to court and listen to such filthy garbage. He even asked the people to not read the newspapers when the story came out. It is repugnant and appalling.
Another reason [which may have been a bad one in hindsight] was the sheer cost it would put on the FLDS people. Warren Jeffs has no money of his own, all of his substinance comes from the donations of the people. He knew that very well and would rather spend the donations building homes for the people than spending it and going into debt to pay lawyers.
The thought that anyone believes the lawsuits are legitimate is rather insulting to me personally. Not that my integrity is unimpugnable, but realize, just for one minute, that I willingly left my beautiful wife whom I would die for, I left my sweet angelic children who are worth more than all the world to me, and I left all of my wonderful friends and family in the FLDS; because I know that this is the only way for me to gain the integrity that I didn’t have. I would rather die than lie, because I know that God sees and hears everything I do and everything I think. To give up what I have proves how much I know he is innocent.
Warren Jeffs is an innocent man. If he is condemned to the death that his enemies desire, I would gladly take his place. And I have lost more than all of those who are suing him put together have lost. That is how innocent he is. I would bet my life on it.
From An FLDS Mother
I have been very busy, I have lots to post, lots of questions to answer, but I want to post this comment that I stole from this blog post because I think it is important:
An FLDS Mother said-
"I am so very tired of hearing from people that listen to media as well. (Media says whatever sells.)
I have sons, each have had to make their own choices. Two were having some troubles. What I mean is they liked girls, listened to bad music and drank with friends. This in turn lead them to be very disrespectful to their father and me. They had to choose, what they wanted in life. I’m so grateful the choice they made was to clean up their life and stay. They are very good men now and such a support to us all. I also have another son who is having to make the same choice. At first he didn’t want to stay, but he is seeing things a little different. He doesn’t want to leave now… he is working on cleaning up his life as well. I pray he can do it. I know he can, but its his choice. All the boys that have left had the same choices.
What the standards are for one religion may not be the same standards for another. We expect perfect obedience. Honoring the parents. Behaving as the “outside” world does, is NOT honoring your parents. We try to raise our children to be clean, have morals, to talk sweetly, to act sweetly, to love one another, to be kind to everyone, pray for everyone, forgive everyone, and let God be the judge, ect. How could this life style be so abusive. You say well underage marriages…. this is not taught nor is it trained. I was legal age when I married my husband who is only two years older then me. Old men??? Where???? There aren’t very many old men left here. But there sure are a lot of young men that are ready to be married, and there are a lot of older girls, in their 20’s that are still waiting to be married. I’m sorry, but the media says a lot of lies. “Judge not that ye be not judged.”
An FLDS Mother said-
"I am so very tired of hearing from people that listen to media as well. (Media says whatever sells.)
I have sons, each have had to make their own choices. Two were having some troubles. What I mean is they liked girls, listened to bad music and drank with friends. This in turn lead them to be very disrespectful to their father and me. They had to choose, what they wanted in life. I’m so grateful the choice they made was to clean up their life and stay. They are very good men now and such a support to us all. I also have another son who is having to make the same choice. At first he didn’t want to stay, but he is seeing things a little different. He doesn’t want to leave now… he is working on cleaning up his life as well. I pray he can do it. I know he can, but its his choice. All the boys that have left had the same choices.
What the standards are for one religion may not be the same standards for another. We expect perfect obedience. Honoring the parents. Behaving as the “outside” world does, is NOT honoring your parents. We try to raise our children to be clean, have morals, to talk sweetly, to act sweetly, to love one another, to be kind to everyone, pray for everyone, forgive everyone, and let God be the judge, ect. How could this life style be so abusive. You say well underage marriages…. this is not taught nor is it trained. I was legal age when I married my husband who is only two years older then me. Old men??? Where???? There aren’t very many old men left here. But there sure are a lot of young men that are ready to be married, and there are a lot of older girls, in their 20’s that are still waiting to be married. I’m sorry, but the media says a lot of lies. “Judge not that ye be not judged.”
Tuesday, May 6, 2008
Lost Boy questions
From Bored in Vernal:
"When I was reading your blog, I was very interested to read about the safe house for the "lost boys." This is a totally different story than what I have heard from the media. Were you living at Short Creek when all this happened? It sounds like you know all these guys personally. I just wondered if you think it would be accurate to say that the boys leave voluntarily because they are not living the principles being taught in the community and would like to go and "sow their wild oats?" Where is the media getting their story of these boys that are just "dropped off" to try to survive on their own with no resources? Are there any boys that experienced this?"
Top to bottom
Richard Roundy (underage, my cousin)
Johnny Jessop (underage, recently sued looking for mommy)
Carl Ream (underage, Richy's brother)
Tommy Sam Steed (One of the 6 sue-ers, see "Lost and Found")
Not sure
Walter Fischer (One of the 6)
Raymond Hardy (parents left)
Richard Gilbert (Lead of 6, see "Lost and Found")
I couldn't find a picture with my brothers in it, but at the time they were in most of them
ANSWERS:
Yes, I was living in Short Creek and I do know most of the "lost boys"
Yes, they all left voluntarily so they wouldn't have to live up to the rules in their homes (party, booze), or some were asked out for not living up to the rules of their homes. (Most over 18). None of the minor boys were "dropped off". Their parents did seek for them when they took off, but the older boys (if they were FLDS they would be called Adult Men) would cover for them when their parents came looking. They each have their own story, but they all left more than willingly. Resources? Sorry, that made me laugh. Some of these guys were hard workers, others freeloaders. They are in this picture for one reason, and that is to get money from Dan Fischer.
The "Lost Boy's" term and the "dropped off" stories came from Shem Fischer and his brother Dan Fischer. Dan left the church over a decade ago, and was rather bitter but not until Shem came running to him claiming to having been unjustly fired from his job (his resignation letter said otherwise), did he decide to join the crusade. They filed four lawsuits at the same time, and this was one of them. After the big media campaign and the lawsuits, the underage boys now had a place to hide behind to avoid going home. Just say "I'm a lost boy" Instead of making them go home, the crusaders would "protect" them from the polygamists.
Funny, "Lost Boy" is an insult to most of them now.
I know several fellows who had left the church and came back a few years later, but it depends on how they "sowed their oats". It's a whole lot easier just to stay.
"When I was reading your blog, I was very interested to read about the safe house for the "lost boys." This is a totally different story than what I have heard from the media. Were you living at Short Creek when all this happened? It sounds like you know all these guys personally. I just wondered if you think it would be accurate to say that the boys leave voluntarily because they are not living the principles being taught in the community and would like to go and "sow their wild oats?" Where is the media getting their story of these boys that are just "dropped off" to try to survive on their own with no resources? Are there any boys that experienced this?"
Top to bottomRichard Roundy (underage, my cousin)
Johnny Jessop (underage, recently sued looking for mommy)
Carl Ream (underage, Richy's brother)
Tommy Sam Steed (One of the 6 sue-ers, see "Lost and Found")
Not sure
Walter Fischer (One of the 6)
Raymond Hardy (parents left)
Richard Gilbert (Lead of 6, see "Lost and Found")
I couldn't find a picture with my brothers in it, but at the time they were in most of them
ANSWERS:
Yes, I was living in Short Creek and I do know most of the "lost boys"
Yes, they all left voluntarily so they wouldn't have to live up to the rules in their homes (party, booze), or some were asked out for not living up to the rules of their homes. (Most over 18). None of the minor boys were "dropped off". Their parents did seek for them when they took off, but the older boys (if they were FLDS they would be called Adult Men) would cover for them when their parents came looking. They each have their own story, but they all left more than willingly. Resources? Sorry, that made me laugh. Some of these guys were hard workers, others freeloaders. They are in this picture for one reason, and that is to get money from Dan Fischer.
The "Lost Boy's" term and the "dropped off" stories came from Shem Fischer and his brother Dan Fischer. Dan left the church over a decade ago, and was rather bitter but not until Shem came running to him claiming to having been unjustly fired from his job (his resignation letter said otherwise), did he decide to join the crusade. They filed four lawsuits at the same time, and this was one of them. After the big media campaign and the lawsuits, the underage boys now had a place to hide behind to avoid going home. Just say "I'm a lost boy" Instead of making them go home, the crusaders would "protect" them from the polygamists.
Funny, "Lost Boy" is an insult to most of them now.
I know several fellows who had left the church and came back a few years later, but it depends on how they "sowed their oats". It's a whole lot easier just to stay.
Thursday, May 1, 2008
My Cousin Weighs In
"THESE PEOPLE NEED A VOICE!
"I left the FLDS three years ago when I was 23. I had a very happy childhood free from television, drugs, and abuse. These are some of the things I personally witnessed:
"When a girl thought she was ready to get married, she would tell her father that she was ready to move on. Her father would turn her over to the prophet (Rulon or Warren Jeffs) to be placed in marriage. I saw Rulon many times tell the girl that she needed to be 18 before she was married, and I saw some girls ask to be married anyway, and sometimes he would give in to their request. It was not a common thing to see a girl younger than 15 get married, but if they did, it was always the result of her father putting a lot of pressure on Rulon or Warren to do something about their daughter. No one was ever forced. I saw several girls tell the prophet that she didn't want to marry so and so and that was the end of it (I know this because word really got around). Rulon and Warren always asked a girl if she had anyone in mind before she was placed with someone. Sometimes they would ask for an older guy with several wives already.
"You've got to realize that the only thing these girls really lived for was getting married and having children. They do not have the same mindset as your typical teenage girl. Some were rebellious and wild teenagers sure, but 90% of the girls I grew up with only wanted to get married and have children. At the same time, 90% of the men didn't want their daughters to leave home and were very protective of them. My father wept when my older sister got married (she was 19) but he knew it would make her happy.
"As for the men. 95% of the men I knew were honorable and trustworthy. They had beautiful families that loved them and would do anything for them. "by their fruits you shall know them". I challenge anyone to look at those children in Texas and honestly say "they are a product of pedophiles and immorality". An example of immorality would be someone that advertises their body by wearing next to nothing, uses foul language, uses drugs and exhibits no self control. You will not find that with these people. Sex is not even in their vocabulary. Literally.
"I personally know every man on that Ranch in Texas. Search the world over, you will not find men more dedicated, more committed, and more focused on living in Peace and living their religion than within that group. They do not care what anyone else does, they only want to live their religion.
"You should also note, half of the children raised within the FLDS, end up leaving on their own free will and choice. 95% of them you will never hear from again. 5% seem to spread rumor and false accusations everywhere they turn either because they are lonely and need someone or something to blame, or because they really were hurt or abused and somehow think it's the church's fault.
"As for this raid in Texas here are some interesting facts:
1)There is only one Dale Barlow over the age of 40 within the FLDS. This man was convicted of fathering a child with a 16 year old two years ago. He has been on probation ever since and is not allowed to leave the state of Arizona except to report to his probation officer in St. George, UT. Authorities know where he is and he has not yet been arrested. (There is another member whose name is spelled Dell but he is in his late 60's)
2)There is absolutely no physical evidence that this 16 year old who supposedly called in to report abuse even exists. Anyone could have made that call.
3)Anyone that thinks there is something wrong with having a bed in a temple that has disturbed linen and a female hair, is assuming WAY too much.
4)If I was a four year old child and I was taken away from my loving mother and father, I would be confused and hurt and would probably find a way of seeing how it was my fault.
5)The media keeps saying that 100 something women left on their own? They simply refuse to let their children go without them.
6)There are three sides to every news story and so far, everyone is getting only two. People that have left and are bitter, and people that are jumping to conclusions. I would like to be the third because I know these people, I am a product of these people and I believe they should be understood and left alone.
"I left on my own accord because I was standing in the way. I wasn't ready to give up material things and I didn't believe Warren Jeffs was a prophet. I drew my own conclusion, and every member of that church is fully capable of doing the same if they so choose." austlittlebeast@yahoo.com
"I left the FLDS three years ago when I was 23. I had a very happy childhood free from television, drugs, and abuse. These are some of the things I personally witnessed:
"When a girl thought she was ready to get married, she would tell her father that she was ready to move on. Her father would turn her over to the prophet (Rulon or Warren Jeffs) to be placed in marriage. I saw Rulon many times tell the girl that she needed to be 18 before she was married, and I saw some girls ask to be married anyway, and sometimes he would give in to their request. It was not a common thing to see a girl younger than 15 get married, but if they did, it was always the result of her father putting a lot of pressure on Rulon or Warren to do something about their daughter. No one was ever forced. I saw several girls tell the prophet that she didn't want to marry so and so and that was the end of it (I know this because word really got around). Rulon and Warren always asked a girl if she had anyone in mind before she was placed with someone. Sometimes they would ask for an older guy with several wives already.
"You've got to realize that the only thing these girls really lived for was getting married and having children. They do not have the same mindset as your typical teenage girl. Some were rebellious and wild teenagers sure, but 90% of the girls I grew up with only wanted to get married and have children. At the same time, 90% of the men didn't want their daughters to leave home and were very protective of them. My father wept when my older sister got married (she was 19) but he knew it would make her happy.
"As for the men. 95% of the men I knew were honorable and trustworthy. They had beautiful families that loved them and would do anything for them. "by their fruits you shall know them". I challenge anyone to look at those children in Texas and honestly say "they are a product of pedophiles and immorality". An example of immorality would be someone that advertises their body by wearing next to nothing, uses foul language, uses drugs and exhibits no self control. You will not find that with these people. Sex is not even in their vocabulary. Literally.
"I personally know every man on that Ranch in Texas. Search the world over, you will not find men more dedicated, more committed, and more focused on living in Peace and living their religion than within that group. They do not care what anyone else does, they only want to live their religion.
"You should also note, half of the children raised within the FLDS, end up leaving on their own free will and choice. 95% of them you will never hear from again. 5% seem to spread rumor and false accusations everywhere they turn either because they are lonely and need someone or something to blame, or because they really were hurt or abused and somehow think it's the church's fault.
"As for this raid in Texas here are some interesting facts:
1)There is only one Dale Barlow over the age of 40 within the FLDS. This man was convicted of fathering a child with a 16 year old two years ago. He has been on probation ever since and is not allowed to leave the state of Arizona except to report to his probation officer in St. George, UT. Authorities know where he is and he has not yet been arrested. (There is another member whose name is spelled Dell but he is in his late 60's)
2)There is absolutely no physical evidence that this 16 year old who supposedly called in to report abuse even exists. Anyone could have made that call.
3)Anyone that thinks there is something wrong with having a bed in a temple that has disturbed linen and a female hair, is assuming WAY too much.
4)If I was a four year old child and I was taken away from my loving mother and father, I would be confused and hurt and would probably find a way of seeing how it was my fault.
5)The media keeps saying that 100 something women left on their own? They simply refuse to let their children go without them.
6)There are three sides to every news story and so far, everyone is getting only two. People that have left and are bitter, and people that are jumping to conclusions. I would like to be the third because I know these people, I am a product of these people and I believe they should be understood and left alone.
"I left on my own accord because I was standing in the way. I wasn't ready to give up material things and I didn't believe Warren Jeffs was a prophet. I drew my own conclusion, and every member of that church is fully capable of doing the same if they so choose." austlittlebeast@yahoo.com
Lost and Found "Boys"
Beginning mid 2002 to mid 2003 there was a split in the FLDS church. Winston Blackmore, the Bishop in Canada was demoted, and his brother Richard was asked to be the Bishop. Winston then held a gathering in Canada announcing he would not step down and his brother and about half of the residents joined his new church. There was a few from the Colorado City area who also agreed with Winston, and among them was Doug Cook. Doug Cook was a tile contractor who had just recently split up with his wife. Doug had a few young men working for him when he left the FLDS, among them were two of my brothers. They were all at least 18 except Doug’s own sons. He rented a house in the town of Hurricane, about 20 miles from the FLDS towns of Hildale and Colorado City. This became the first “Lost Boy” party (safe?) house. Literally dozens of boys, some as young as 13, would catch a ride down to this house every night. I don’t know what they were doing to gain such recognition, but the Hurricane police department got rather tired of going over there. Although this was not the only place to disappear to, it was well known by many parents who drove down there every night looking for their sons and sometimes daughters.
If a girl leaves, she “escapes” If a boy does he is “kicked out” if you ask the activists. Neither one is true.
Over the next few months I went there twice to pick up my sister Fawn, and look for some of my minor aged nephews who had caught a ride with my brothers and their friends. Later Doug moved his house and crew to St George. Other older guys got thier own place, but my brothers nephews, and their friends lived at Doug's. The “Lost Boy” term was invented by Dan and Shem Fischer. Dan Fischer a wealthy dentist and former member, and his younger brother Shem who had just recently left the church, paid these guys to come to Salt Lake for a party, and on July 31, 2004 they all gathered on the steps of the Capital building. Most of them, including my brothers, were rather embarrassed and to this day refer to being called a “Lost Boy” as an insult.
One month later Dan Fischer got six of the young men to sue Warren Jeffs and the United Effort Plan (the trust the people of the FLDS held their homes and property in together) I am really grateful that my brothers refused to be a part of the lawsuit even when their friends were. Thanks for not hurting your parents more, guys!
The Six “Lost Boys” were: (ages in 2oo4)
Richard Gilbert (19) – Whose parents had left the FLDS several years earlier
Richard Ream (21) – Who joined the church headed by Winston (truck driver)
Walter Fischer (2o) – Who was asked out of the house for advances to his step sister
Don Fischer (18) – Walters’s younger brother, both worked for Doug Cook
Dean Barlow (18) – (Can’t remember him, lots of Barlow’s :>)
Thomas S Steed (18) – Whose parents had left the church several years before
There were quite a few minor boys in the news articles about the “Lost Boys” but none were included in the lawsuit because their parents would have made them come home. Most of the underage boys I saw were living with their older brothers. One of my sisters did give custody of her 15 year old son to one of my uncles who had left the church long ago. I am sure there are others like him, but I don’t know them. She got tired of chasing him home, and let him go. It is hard enough to keep wayward teenagers in the house at night, and it became practically impossible when bitter anti-FLDS people are “rescuing” them from you on top of that.
I want to address the ridiculous story that these guys were “kicked out” to reduce competition for brides. I am sorry, I am laughing just to type this. If it wasn’t all over the news I would think it was a silly joke. If these guys wanted to compete for the girls, they sure didn’t try very hard. All you had to do was obey the doctrines of the church. I am sure some men in the FLDS have as many wives as they do because there weren't enough young guys who would settle down and obey the church doctrines. Two of my brothers are now married to young ladies who left the FLDS, and one (I hope) is getting married soon. Be a man, Brig!
Now I don't have much criticism for the Diversity Foundation that Dan Fischer has created, nor the charity schooling that he is doing for some of these guys, but the lawsuit was like suing their own parents. I think that was awful, and led (among the other three lawsuits paid for by Dan Fischer) to the seizure of the UEP Trust and all of the homes on it.
If a girl leaves, she “escapes” If a boy does he is “kicked out” if you ask the activists. Neither one is true.
Over the next few months I went there twice to pick up my sister Fawn, and look for some of my minor aged nephews who had caught a ride with my brothers and their friends. Later Doug moved his house and crew to St George. Other older guys got thier own place, but my brothers nephews, and their friends lived at Doug's. The “Lost Boy” term was invented by Dan and Shem Fischer. Dan Fischer a wealthy dentist and former member, and his younger brother Shem who had just recently left the church, paid these guys to come to Salt Lake for a party, and on July 31, 2004 they all gathered on the steps of the Capital building. Most of them, including my brothers, were rather embarrassed and to this day refer to being called a “Lost Boy” as an insult.
One month later Dan Fischer got six of the young men to sue Warren Jeffs and the United Effort Plan (the trust the people of the FLDS held their homes and property in together) I am really grateful that my brothers refused to be a part of the lawsuit even when their friends were. Thanks for not hurting your parents more, guys!
The Six “Lost Boys” were: (ages in 2oo4)
Richard Gilbert (19) – Whose parents had left the FLDS several years earlier
Richard Ream (21) – Who joined the church headed by Winston (truck driver)
Walter Fischer (2o) – Who was asked out of the house for advances to his step sister
Don Fischer (18) – Walters’s younger brother, both worked for Doug Cook
Dean Barlow (18) – (Can’t remember him, lots of Barlow’s :>)
Thomas S Steed (18) – Whose parents had left the church several years before
There were quite a few minor boys in the news articles about the “Lost Boys” but none were included in the lawsuit because their parents would have made them come home. Most of the underage boys I saw were living with their older brothers. One of my sisters did give custody of her 15 year old son to one of my uncles who had left the church long ago. I am sure there are others like him, but I don’t know them. She got tired of chasing him home, and let him go. It is hard enough to keep wayward teenagers in the house at night, and it became practically impossible when bitter anti-FLDS people are “rescuing” them from you on top of that.
I want to address the ridiculous story that these guys were “kicked out” to reduce competition for brides. I am sorry, I am laughing just to type this. If it wasn’t all over the news I would think it was a silly joke. If these guys wanted to compete for the girls, they sure didn’t try very hard. All you had to do was obey the doctrines of the church. I am sure some men in the FLDS have as many wives as they do because there weren't enough young guys who would settle down and obey the church doctrines. Two of my brothers are now married to young ladies who left the FLDS, and one (I hope) is getting married soon. Be a man, Brig!
Now I don't have much criticism for the Diversity Foundation that Dan Fischer has created, nor the charity schooling that he is doing for some of these guys, but the lawsuit was like suing their own parents. I think that was awful, and led (among the other three lawsuits paid for by Dan Fischer) to the seizure of the UEP Trust and all of the homes on it.
Sunday, April 27, 2008
Cultural Awareness Guide
I found a copy of the "Cultural Awareness Guide" that the state has passed out to the those running the shelters that they have taken their little prisoners to. And I want to point out each of the things that they obviously got from "escapees" (or those who have become very bitter) and are bigoted lies.
1-The very first thing under "Culture" is just plain bunk. "Have a deep instilled fear of the outside world" That is just not true whatsoever. Most fear is a result of hatred, and they are taught to love and forgive all. To avoid association with those with lower standards is not because of fear.
2-"Males dominate Females" I don't think these people have met my mother. If the man is the head of the family, does he dominate? "No power or influence can, or aught to be maintained by virtue of the priesthood. Only by persuasion, by long suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned" (I just typed that off the top of my head from being REQUIRED to memorize it).
3- "Distrust all outsiders" I am sure those who have interviewed the children could bunk this one. But to trust after being told your mother is just going for a minute? Why should they trust them?
4- "Electronics are prohibited" TV, and modern music yes. Computers, cell phones, i-pods are very common and have never been prohibited.
5- "Children, while in care, especially young boys, have made derogatory remarks to staff of color" I am sure some have made derogatory remarks to all of the staff, they are children, and they have been kidnapped. They are not taught to be bigots, but to be respectful.
6- "Children in care were initially extremely compliant, but are beginning to “act out” after separation from parents" Well duh!
7-"Children are socialized to believe that sexual activity with adults is positive" Now this one, this one is so sick minded that I would rather not even mention it, but there it is in black and white. Why is bigotry is considered common sense to these people?
8- "No pork" I better stop eating hot dogs!
9- "Occasional fasting for 1-3 days" This came directly from bitterness. Children are never included in fasting unless they want to. Fasting is an extension of prayer, and is referred to as "rejoicing and prayer" You can't fast and be grumpy about it, you might as well eat.
10-"Some children may not have education beyond the 8th grade." This one may be true, but it made me laugh. I bet not one of those six-year-olds have more than an 8th grade education!
11-"Since 4/4/08 children are playing with cars, battery operated toys, riding tricycles, and enjoying other more mainstream toys" The only toys that are discouraged are talking animals, and action figures.
12- "Children do not know the correct names for body parts and are not familiar with the terms “intercourse”, “sexual intercourse,” or “sexual relations”. GOOD GRIEF! Are you people telling me that YOUR children understand these terms?
13- "Clarifier: At this time, it is difficult to determine many of the religious beliefs of this particular community due to their isolation from mainstream society." That is because they are treating mothers like third class animals who are too stupid to tell them. What an insult.
14- "...and discourages the use of conventional medicine." Since when? Sure home remedies are great, but everything is given to man from God, even all of the modern medicines.
15-"They believe personal revelation can come in the form of a strong impression, dream, voice, vision, or “burning of the bosom.” The still, small, voice. A burning peace. I am curious, is this meant to be an insult? The way it is written it seems to be because it has absolutely no bearing on how to treat children.
16-"If children do not conform to high standards set by the parents, they often feel they are failures, and parents may take extreme disciplinary measures to force obedience." Good heavens, I hope that they are not believing this garbage.
17-"Intercourse is referred to as “heavenly relations”, or “marriage relations” Intercourse is not even referred to at all with children under marriageable age.
18- Some of the glossary is really stupid and irrelevant. Not one of those children will know what you are talking about when you say "Lost Boys", or "Poofers". And I have never heard of the "True order of Prayer" garbage myself. This is obviously information attempting to prejudice the workers against these children's parents.
The only thing they are "rescuing" these children from, is believing the gospel of their parents
1-The very first thing under "Culture" is just plain bunk. "Have a deep instilled fear of the outside world" That is just not true whatsoever. Most fear is a result of hatred, and they are taught to love and forgive all. To avoid association with those with lower standards is not because of fear.
2-"Males dominate Females" I don't think these people have met my mother. If the man is the head of the family, does he dominate? "No power or influence can, or aught to be maintained by virtue of the priesthood. Only by persuasion, by long suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned" (I just typed that off the top of my head from being REQUIRED to memorize it).
3- "Distrust all outsiders" I am sure those who have interviewed the children could bunk this one. But to trust after being told your mother is just going for a minute? Why should they trust them?
4- "Electronics are prohibited" TV, and modern music yes. Computers, cell phones, i-pods are very common and have never been prohibited.
5- "Children, while in care, especially young boys, have made derogatory remarks to staff of color" I am sure some have made derogatory remarks to all of the staff, they are children, and they have been kidnapped. They are not taught to be bigots, but to be respectful.
6- "Children in care were initially extremely compliant, but are beginning to “act out” after separation from parents" Well duh!
7-"Children are socialized to believe that sexual activity with adults is positive" Now this one, this one is so sick minded that I would rather not even mention it, but there it is in black and white. Why is bigotry is considered common sense to these people?
8- "No pork" I better stop eating hot dogs!
9- "Occasional fasting for 1-3 days" This came directly from bitterness. Children are never included in fasting unless they want to. Fasting is an extension of prayer, and is referred to as "rejoicing and prayer" You can't fast and be grumpy about it, you might as well eat.
10-"Some children may not have education beyond the 8th grade." This one may be true, but it made me laugh. I bet not one of those six-year-olds have more than an 8th grade education!
11-"Since 4/4/08 children are playing with cars, battery operated toys, riding tricycles, and enjoying other more mainstream toys" The only toys that are discouraged are talking animals, and action figures.
12- "Children do not know the correct names for body parts and are not familiar with the terms “intercourse”, “sexual intercourse,” or “sexual relations”. GOOD GRIEF! Are you people telling me that YOUR children understand these terms?
13- "Clarifier: At this time, it is difficult to determine many of the religious beliefs of this particular community due to their isolation from mainstream society." That is because they are treating mothers like third class animals who are too stupid to tell them. What an insult.
14- "...and discourages the use of conventional medicine." Since when? Sure home remedies are great, but everything is given to man from God, even all of the modern medicines.
15-"They believe personal revelation can come in the form of a strong impression, dream, voice, vision, or “burning of the bosom.” The still, small, voice. A burning peace. I am curious, is this meant to be an insult? The way it is written it seems to be because it has absolutely no bearing on how to treat children.
16-"If children do not conform to high standards set by the parents, they often feel they are failures, and parents may take extreme disciplinary measures to force obedience." Good heavens, I hope that they are not believing this garbage.
17-"Intercourse is referred to as “heavenly relations”, or “marriage relations” Intercourse is not even referred to at all with children under marriageable age.
18- Some of the glossary is really stupid and irrelevant. Not one of those children will know what you are talking about when you say "Lost Boys", or "Poofers". And I have never heard of the "True order of Prayer" garbage myself. This is obviously information attempting to prejudice the workers against these children's parents.
The only thing they are "rescuing" these children from, is believing the gospel of their parents
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