Ladies, and Ladies, and Ladies, and Gentlemen!!
Step right up and witness to your wonder and amazement. The FLDS polygamists!
Look at that man, doesnt he look sinister? No?
Poor guy has to take orders from.... HOW many women? What is he thinking? There has got to be an easier way to satisfy his urge to...OBEY GOD? What madness!, what insanity!
THERE AUGHT TO BE A LAW! How does he support them? How does he care for them? They have to be abused! WE have to be abused! How dare he have so many children! ISNT THIS AMERICA? Dont we have some guns somewhere? Where is the justice, where is the humanity? Save the children! Save the women!
JUST LOOK AT THOSE POOR WOMEN! Look at their....HAPPY FACES? THERE AUGHT TO BE A LAW! They must be abused into smiling like that! KEEP SWEET? What tyranny! What abuse!, these women must be mad! How can they abuse their bodies into having all of those little....GOURGEOUS CHILDREN? They can't possibly love so many! An army of Fundamentalist! We will be overthrown! We will be bankrupt! Stop the children! Stop the children! AAAAAAAGGGGHHHHHHH
Showing posts with label Welfare. Show all posts
Showing posts with label Welfare. Show all posts
Tuesday, June 10, 2008
Wednesday, May 28, 2008
Q and A with FLDS mothers
How in the world do you make sure each child gets quality one-on-one time in such a large family group?
From lover of the truth:
The simple answer to that question is: We don't live for ourselves! We live for others, for our children and for our sister wives, Husbands live to bless the work, Wives live to bless the husbands, sister wives and children, they are much to engaged to worry about who's sleeping with who. Who's servicing who, who's got what, and who is loved the most. A true husband loves everyone, and it's never been a truer saying than with each endeavor to love, the capacity to love grows larger. The more children in the home, the more love in us. We are here to make heaven on earth, the only competition being who can do the most for another. So, we don't live for ourselves. I know what your saying, "how is that possible?", well, it takes work, and it takes dedication, it takes overcoming the inherent faults within us. When it becomes first tendency to live and love that way, it is beautiful. I hope that answered that question, the children get much more one on one time than they would in a single relationship, they have many mothers, and they can go to any one of them and know that that Mother loves them, and will do all she can to bless them.
Do you celebrate Mothers day?
From lover of the truth again:
To answer the question, No, We don't celebrate any certain day as Mother's day, again Mothers are very special every day, and most that you talk to would tell you that they feel that way. It's tradition to make one day for Thanksgiving-Father's Day-Mothers Day. Every day we should be thankful, every day we should thanks God for our husbands, wives, mothers, and fathers. That's how we feel, that's how we live.
Did any of the young women ever desire to have careers or lives outside the compound? Was it discouraged or flat out denied?
From lover of the truth:
Did you hear about Lorie Jessop, she is an EMT-I!! I don't know if you saw it, but yes, if the ladies would like to do something and have their hearts set upon it, then they are allowed free choice. There is not, and I repeat not any force in our religion!! If there is somebody who was, then I'm sorry they or the person who forced them PLAIN AND SIMPLY was pretending to live our religion and wasn't truly. There are many nurses, FNP, Midwives, School Teachers, Book Keepers, EMT's, and on and on and on in our communities, that are women. If a woman wants out, then she can leave, as parents, when they are still minors, we have to be responsible for them, but even then I have never seen any of the people I know force them to stay. Rather, I've seen parents fast, pray, and go out at all hours of the night to retrieve them, and offer them a loving home to come to. I've seen the girls leave, I've seen some come back, I've seen some gone for good. There is no force in our religion!!
Isn't the prophet supposed to choose for you?”
Anon FLDS mother:
When I was married.. I was asked by the Prophet "how do you feel about marrying so'n'so? I replied " I feel fine about that" I knew who he was although I didn't "know him".I think this is what is meant by most of our women when they say they "chose" their Husbands. Although there are some couples that "chose each other" in many cases they were sent away to repent and later married by the Prophet.I have a wonderful life.. I am still the only wife..but I am praying that we can be blessed with another lady in the family. My Husband told me that it is ok for the wife to pray for a sister wife..but as for the Husband it is no concern of his until he is invited to live it.
[Insert by pligchild: "choosing each other" is dating without permission. I know a few that felt impressed who they should marry, and married that man]
I would like to know if FLDS folks get social security cards. I would like to know if they have birth certificates. I would like to know if the children from spiritual marriages are on welfare and if the women are registered with the welfare system as a single mother.I would like to know if they file tax returns and if they do are they claiming to be single mothers. I would like to know if these women will get the stimulus package from the government for all of their children and do they have to hand over this money to their spiritual husbands. Thank you.
From anon FLDS mother:
Everyone has Birth Cirt's. and S.S. cards...and as far as the welfare goes I can only answer for what I know.The only plural family that I personally am aware of..when they did apply for F.S. & Medical it was. Husband, Wife #1,Wife #2,Wife #3.etc..they applied as a family.I looked at their form as I was asked to vouch for knowing them. Three of the ladies in that family were related to me.As for my own family..(only wife) yes we were on F.S. & Medical for about 1 1/2 years as we fell on hard times. My Husband lost his job..I was a stay at home Mother and our two older sons supported the family until we got back on our feet. We got off welfare as soon as we could as my Husband referred to it as the "government tit" and hated the idea of asking them for help.
Carol (non FLDS fundamentalist)
Yes, we do get social security cards. Yes, we do get birth certificates. Some children are on welfare, some aren't depending on the beliefs of the parents. Yes, even in this group different families believe differently on things like that. Yes, we do file tax returns and what else can we claim, if the government doesn't recognize the plural marriage? Yes, we will receive the stimulus package, but not likely for all the children. Maybe one or two. And if the plural wife chooses she can keep the money. This is just one perspective, there are definitely many more.
Any woman who leaves the FLDS and exposes the trauma they experienced are exaggerating and lying because they are blinded by bitterness and jealously. ?
Carol:
I was talking from my perspective, and I was Honest to my knowledge. I know there are some men that really are that horrible to their families. But it is not the norm. And I said some of it could have happened. But I will say yes, I do believe they are hateful, jealous and exaggerating. I will make no compromise on that because I know from experience how a person(s) can seem from the hateful, jealous side. And when you are enclosed in that little world, you tend to blow things WAY out of proportion. I am not denying things like this have happened. They have, but it tends to be the ones that are NOT living their religion. Is my answer any better??
[From Pligchild: "there are some men that really are that horrible to their families" the FLDS send them out when discovered]
Please explain to me why handicapped or severely ill children are seen as (for lack of a better word)products of their mothers' disobedience to the prophet and God? Isn't every child perfect and loved by God equally?
Anon FLDS mother:
That is not true. We were told by Uncle Rulon (our Dear Prophet) that the children that are born with handicaps are the MOST PRECIOUS spirits of our Father in Heaven..and that he sent them to the earth that way so that they could NOT be let astray and that when they returned unto him they would be Pure and Innocent. He also went on to say that the spirits in heaven have a choice as to whether accept a body that is handicapped or refuse it.
Why would Carolyn say that her husband and sister wives told her that she had a handicapped son because she was disobedient?
Anon FLDS:
..I know for a fact that Merrill's oldest son has a disables daughter (from wife #2) and they have a picture plaque in their front entryway that states how blessed they feel as a family to be chosen by God to have such a precious spirit come into their lives..that the Lord trusted them enough to give them this special child that would need lots of care. I can see where a jealous wife could say hurtful things to another wife..but it is hard for me to swallow that Merrill would say such things as he knows and understands the same teachings that I do.
The Prophet Joseph Smiths said: Do NOT wish evil on those that persecute us or do harm to us..for when you see what they go through as a punishment for their wrongs against his anointed..We will mourn and pray for them. Because it will be so terrible...Our Dear Prophet Uncle John Y. Barlow said:That the Lord showed him the destruction's and what would become of the wicked...and it was so terrible that he plead with the Lord to close the vision..because he could not stand to see any more.So.. I can only speak for myself, but..I am praying that the people that are persecuting our people would "WAKE UP and REPENT" of their wrongs before it is to late.I do not wish harm on "CPS" or the "OFFICIALS" that are heading this campaign against us.. but I DO PRAY that the LORDS WILL, will be done on earth as it is in HEAVEN. When he says ENOUGH..then he will bring an end to the wrongs that are brought against his people.
From lover of the truth:
The simple answer to that question is: We don't live for ourselves! We live for others, for our children and for our sister wives, Husbands live to bless the work, Wives live to bless the husbands, sister wives and children, they are much to engaged to worry about who's sleeping with who. Who's servicing who, who's got what, and who is loved the most. A true husband loves everyone, and it's never been a truer saying than with each endeavor to love, the capacity to love grows larger. The more children in the home, the more love in us. We are here to make heaven on earth, the only competition being who can do the most for another. So, we don't live for ourselves. I know what your saying, "how is that possible?", well, it takes work, and it takes dedication, it takes overcoming the inherent faults within us. When it becomes first tendency to live and love that way, it is beautiful. I hope that answered that question, the children get much more one on one time than they would in a single relationship, they have many mothers, and they can go to any one of them and know that that Mother loves them, and will do all she can to bless them.
Do you celebrate Mothers day?
From lover of the truth again:
To answer the question, No, We don't celebrate any certain day as Mother's day, again Mothers are very special every day, and most that you talk to would tell you that they feel that way. It's tradition to make one day for Thanksgiving-Father's Day-Mothers Day. Every day we should be thankful, every day we should thanks God for our husbands, wives, mothers, and fathers. That's how we feel, that's how we live.
Did any of the young women ever desire to have careers or lives outside the compound? Was it discouraged or flat out denied?
From lover of the truth:
Did you hear about Lorie Jessop, she is an EMT-I!! I don't know if you saw it, but yes, if the ladies would like to do something and have their hearts set upon it, then they are allowed free choice. There is not, and I repeat not any force in our religion!! If there is somebody who was, then I'm sorry they or the person who forced them PLAIN AND SIMPLY was pretending to live our religion and wasn't truly. There are many nurses, FNP, Midwives, School Teachers, Book Keepers, EMT's, and on and on and on in our communities, that are women. If a woman wants out, then she can leave, as parents, when they are still minors, we have to be responsible for them, but even then I have never seen any of the people I know force them to stay. Rather, I've seen parents fast, pray, and go out at all hours of the night to retrieve them, and offer them a loving home to come to. I've seen the girls leave, I've seen some come back, I've seen some gone for good. There is no force in our religion!!
Isn't the prophet supposed to choose for you?”
Anon FLDS mother:
When I was married.. I was asked by the Prophet "how do you feel about marrying so'n'so? I replied " I feel fine about that" I knew who he was although I didn't "know him".I think this is what is meant by most of our women when they say they "chose" their Husbands. Although there are some couples that "chose each other" in many cases they were sent away to repent and later married by the Prophet.I have a wonderful life.. I am still the only wife..but I am praying that we can be blessed with another lady in the family. My Husband told me that it is ok for the wife to pray for a sister wife..but as for the Husband it is no concern of his until he is invited to live it.
[Insert by pligchild: "choosing each other" is dating without permission. I know a few that felt impressed who they should marry, and married that man]
I would like to know if FLDS folks get social security cards. I would like to know if they have birth certificates. I would like to know if the children from spiritual marriages are on welfare and if the women are registered with the welfare system as a single mother.I would like to know if they file tax returns and if they do are they claiming to be single mothers. I would like to know if these women will get the stimulus package from the government for all of their children and do they have to hand over this money to their spiritual husbands. Thank you.
From anon FLDS mother:
Everyone has Birth Cirt's. and S.S. cards...and as far as the welfare goes I can only answer for what I know.The only plural family that I personally am aware of..when they did apply for F.S. & Medical it was. Husband, Wife #1,Wife #2,Wife #3.etc..they applied as a family.I looked at their form as I was asked to vouch for knowing them. Three of the ladies in that family were related to me.As for my own family..(only wife) yes we were on F.S. & Medical for about 1 1/2 years as we fell on hard times. My Husband lost his job..I was a stay at home Mother and our two older sons supported the family until we got back on our feet. We got off welfare as soon as we could as my Husband referred to it as the "government tit" and hated the idea of asking them for help.
Carol (non FLDS fundamentalist)
Yes, we do get social security cards. Yes, we do get birth certificates. Some children are on welfare, some aren't depending on the beliefs of the parents. Yes, even in this group different families believe differently on things like that. Yes, we do file tax returns and what else can we claim, if the government doesn't recognize the plural marriage? Yes, we will receive the stimulus package, but not likely for all the children. Maybe one or two. And if the plural wife chooses she can keep the money. This is just one perspective, there are definitely many more.
Any woman who leaves the FLDS and exposes the trauma they experienced are exaggerating and lying because they are blinded by bitterness and jealously. ?
Carol:
I was talking from my perspective, and I was Honest to my knowledge. I know there are some men that really are that horrible to their families. But it is not the norm. And I said some of it could have happened. But I will say yes, I do believe they are hateful, jealous and exaggerating. I will make no compromise on that because I know from experience how a person(s) can seem from the hateful, jealous side. And when you are enclosed in that little world, you tend to blow things WAY out of proportion. I am not denying things like this have happened. They have, but it tends to be the ones that are NOT living their religion. Is my answer any better??
[From Pligchild: "there are some men that really are that horrible to their families" the FLDS send them out when discovered]
Please explain to me why handicapped or severely ill children are seen as (for lack of a better word)products of their mothers' disobedience to the prophet and God? Isn't every child perfect and loved by God equally?
Anon FLDS mother:
That is not true. We were told by Uncle Rulon (our Dear Prophet) that the children that are born with handicaps are the MOST PRECIOUS spirits of our Father in Heaven..and that he sent them to the earth that way so that they could NOT be let astray and that when they returned unto him they would be Pure and Innocent. He also went on to say that the spirits in heaven have a choice as to whether accept a body that is handicapped or refuse it.
Why would Carolyn say that her husband and sister wives told her that she had a handicapped son because she was disobedient?
Anon FLDS:
..I know for a fact that Merrill's oldest son has a disables daughter (from wife #2) and they have a picture plaque in their front entryway that states how blessed they feel as a family to be chosen by God to have such a precious spirit come into their lives..that the Lord trusted them enough to give them this special child that would need lots of care. I can see where a jealous wife could say hurtful things to another wife..but it is hard for me to swallow that Merrill would say such things as he knows and understands the same teachings that I do.
The Prophet Joseph Smiths said: Do NOT wish evil on those that persecute us or do harm to us..for when you see what they go through as a punishment for their wrongs against his anointed..We will mourn and pray for them. Because it will be so terrible...Our Dear Prophet Uncle John Y. Barlow said:That the Lord showed him the destruction's and what would become of the wicked...and it was so terrible that he plead with the Lord to close the vision..because he could not stand to see any more.So.. I can only speak for myself, but..I am praying that the people that are persecuting our people would "WAKE UP and REPENT" of their wrongs before it is to late.I do not wish harm on "CPS" or the "OFFICIALS" that are heading this campaign against us.. but I DO PRAY that the LORDS WILL, will be done on earth as it is in HEAVEN. When he says ENOUGH..then he will bring an end to the wrongs that are brought against his people.
Monday, May 19, 2008
My Old Blog Posts
Back when I wrote this blog before, I had frequented the texaxpolygamy blog. I don't know why but I saved alot of what I wrote on my computer. In looking back at them I thought they were interesting maybe you will too. Here are some...
"Anyone who thinks this is not religious persecution ARE LOST!If Polygamy was not required by our religion, we would not try to live it. End of STORY IF Polygamy was not against the obviously UNCONSTITUTIONAL law, then you could get all the information that you desire about who married who, when, and even speak to them about whether they were "forced" or not. BUT it IS against the law, END of story.
“Jane Doe” [Elissa] wants to make sure that everyone knows that it is not about religion. Who is she kidding? “Jane Doe”[Elissa] and the state of Utah contend that Warren Jeffs “forced” her to have sex. How did he force her? In what way was she forced? How was she threatened? Was she threatened with monetary fine? NO! Was she threatened with imprisonment? NO! Was she threatened with bodily harm? NO! Was she threatened with death? NO! She was told that if she did not stay married to the man she said “I do” to, then she could lose her ability to procreate IN THE NEXT LIFE. What a threat! She was told that she might not be able to be something that no other religion believes is attainable anyway! Now If that isn’t religious I don’t know what is.
I KNOW that she is MORE “forced” to make this complaint, than she ever was “forced” to get married! And this is the STRONGEST case against Warren Jeffs? And he was on the FBI top ten “most wanted”? HELLOOO, anybody in there McFly? Same lies of forced marriage, welfare fraud, and abuse as were claimed in 1953. The funny thing is THOSE ARE AGAINST OUR RELIGION TOO!
mugs- The law was challenged back in 1879, and the Supreme Court ruled that it was "constitutional" based on the theory that they had to have some control on religion, or else there would be people who commit human sacrifice in the name of religion. WHICH IS BOGUS. That equates the family of Jacob as inhumane as the murderous priests of BAAL! Congress should make no law against the FREE EXERCISE of religion. We will live by the constitution, and the bill of rights, and NOT by unconstitutional laws. Our CREATOR gave us this right, NOT the government.
fttc -NICE TRY, but it IS about religious polygamy. How many teenage mothers among monogomists have older men being charged with rape SOLELY on the fact that the girl was under 18? NONE! Haven't you noticed that a judge was debarred, and that policemen were kicked off the force, not for police or judicial misconduct, but for the SOLE reason they had more than one wife!
atari said-"If everyone can wait a couple years, there's not a problem, and no reason for the law to intervene."
Make the girls wait, big deal. BUT the LAW that put Rodney in jail is a Utah state law that was not passed until 2001; AFTER his marriage was performed. That law states that no girl can get married under 18 to a man that is 10 years her senior WITHOUT PERMISSION FROM THE GOVERNMENT. Is this law against underage sex? NO! Only MARRIAGE! Why wouldn't a judge give permission? How did this become a law? (hint: anti-polygamy)
How about Kelly Fischer? would he have been convicted of anything had it not been for polygamy? OF COURSE NOT!
About Welfare "Fraud". Where is it? Why has no one in the FLDS been charged with it? Isnt it rampant as you say it is? OBVIOUSLY NOT. More lies piled on lies.
About boys being dumped in deserts. BOGUS! IF your son refused to live by the rules of the home, refused to come home at night, and ran away often, what would you do? Think hard. These boys wanted to leave, and they were obliged. I'll bet you nickels to $20 bills that every single one of them (who want to) still have contact with their parents, who love them very much.
THEFT OF PROPERY? HELLOOOO? Who did the property belong to? Who do 99.9% of the FLDS people want controlling the property? (I'll give you a hint it's NOT Bruce Wisan) All of these so called "crimes", including polygamy, are not the goal of ALL of you who want to destroy the FLDS. The great crime that you want to stop, is the crime of holding and obeying what we believe to be Gods law's above man's laws. Of course you will never admit that will you?
furnace- the Bible is a book all about people who lived in your definition of cultism. The word " cult" is harmless, unless there is harm to people. It is the anti-cult that is un-American.
I wanted to comment on what gadestring brought up, for it proves that the girls are NOT forced. All three of the scenarios gadestring defined in her post (9/8/2006 12:39 AM) (except the ultimatum/threat part) COMBINED semi-accurately describe EACH of my rebellious sisters. Rebellion and unbecoming contact with boys are always intertwined. “Saving” them, by marrying them, does not work, unless THEY believe it is the RIGHT thing to do. I had several sisters who were rebellious, (one who left, and came back) and they did not get married until they decided to settle down. I remember telling two of them that, as their brother, I was willing to give my life in defense of their virtue. All of the rebellious ones waited until they were over 18, and all but one of the unrebellious ones too, but that is an afterthought. Now, you could offer them all the money in the world to leave the FLDS, and they would not.
In the FLDS, the only reason girls married when they were teenagers, is because THEY wanted to, and making them wait affects no one except them, and their children. Making them wait until 18 means absolutely nothing to the FLDS. It is just a thinly veiled attack on our religion. Just an attempt to LESSEN the dignity of our faith; A way to make our marriages less "good" than yours.
-------------------
According to teenpregnancy.org 34% (820,000) of ALL teenage girls in the U.S. become pregnant. And a report on mafamily.org states that TWO THIRDS of them were to adult men. I am as disgusted as anyone else about teenage pregnancy to unwed mothers, or any sex without marriage. And I think it is ALWAYS the mans responsibility. But MARRIAGE by teenagers is rarely, if ever, attacked, unless it is associated with religious polygamy.
atari-In the FLDS, there is no urgency to marry at any age. The only reason for marriage is for moral FAMILY creation, and ETERNAL happiness. THAT is the goal, that is what we were taught in public and in private by Warren Jeffs, and Rulon Jeffs, and Leroy S Johnson. Sex is not the goal in our religion, an eternal and mortal family that is pleasing to God is. The age of consent to MARRY is 16 in Utah, and most other states. Utah had to ADD that extra religious polygamy persecuting law requiring the GOVERNMENT to approve marriages under 18. THAT is the law that Rodney Holm was convicted of. MARRIAGE to a girl 10 years his junior. And of course they couldnt convict him of that without proving they were married, which convicted him of bigamy also. Had there NOT been a MARRIAGE ceremony, that case would not have lasted a day.
I will acknowledge that statutory rape should be more widely prosecuted, IF there is no wedding, IF the parents do not approve, and IF the girl does not want to marry. The cases you speak of do not fit that bill, in the least. The monogomist relations that do fit that criteria are NEVER prosecuted. IF YOU will acknowlege that Polygamy, in and of itself, is not abuse, then you might start to see. I still would bet nickels to $20 bills that "Jane Doe" [Elissa] has had a thousand times much more pressure to testify against Uncle Warren than she ever did from him to get married.
The thing I dont understand, from my prospective, is the cloudy headed assumption that girls lose their freedom if they become wives and mothers. Are you not free now? For every Caroline Blackmore Jessop, there are 400 women like my mother, free to leave, but have less than a zero desire to. I know that many of the certified teachers, accountants, and registered nurses in the FLDS had both a college education and a career AFTER getting married and having children. And I bet even YOU would agree that raising children is the greatest career in the world.
gad-The law of chastity is the same as it was as taught by Uncle Rulon, and Uncle Roy, but the law is not as absolute as you state. Like food, libido can do more harm than good, if not self regulated. All I was ever taught was constraint is to the man, and not necessarily to the woman.
Brigham Young said: "The man that enters into this order by the prompting of passion, and not with a view to honor God and carry out his purposes, the curse of God will rest upon him, and that which he seems to have will be taken from him and given to those that act according to principle. Remember it." (JD 9:36)
As for child bearing, I guess I cannot reason with the idea that anyone would NOT want to bring Gods children to earth. One of my mothers had over 16 and she often lamented not having more!
Atari, and gad-The age difference is not new in "Christian" monogomy either. You just put blinders on instead of facing it. The only thing that has changed is YOUR society, where marriage is not necessary first.The truth is there have been very very few marriages at all in the last 4 years. Candi and Ruth [and Elissa] were both married previously, under the direction of Uncle Rulon. Though the ceremonies were performed by Uncle Warren. fttc keeps saying that Uncle Roy, and Uncle Rulon said they wouldn't do it anymore, but they married under 18's WAY WAY more than Uncle Warren has in the last 4 years.
Atari- Your argument is based on the argument that Polygny in and of itself is abusive to women, which is bogus. It is fact that before the Roman Empire, All societies practiced it, all the way back to Adam.
Atari-Your background, and the drive by media, makes your skin crawl when it comes to girls and Warren Jeffs. I can understand that. You have very little more respect for a great man named Leroy S Johnson. But ultimately it is a fight between truth and lies, for me.
Atari-What I was saying was that you had no interest in us, or our religion, before you saw us in the news, and the news only reports through the eyes of "mainstream" Americans, and get their information from apostates. You could not fathom a man having a dozen wives and that being a "moral" thing to do. SO you think you hold the moral high ground before you read past the headline. True?
Leroy S Johnson was a very kind, revered, and magnanimous leader of the FLDS church. He died in 1986. 99% of the people who are feeding the media now about how terrible Warren Jeffs is hold Uncle Roy in very high regard. They claim that our religion has been hijacked by Warren Jeffs, or some other man. But if you had read the headlines (And there were quite a few) back in Uncle Roy’s day, you would probably have the same opinion of him as you have of Warren Jeffs. There were people on food stamps in Uncle Roy’s day. There were young men working on construction sites. There were Jessop’s marrying Barlow’s. There were accidental deaths among children in his day. He taught the "one man" rule in his day. There were many men 'kicked out' in his day. And (for you the most appalling) there were definitely girls under 18 getting married to older men in his day.
I contend that these were acceptable and GOOD things in the sight of God. AND benefit innocent children.The religion has not changed, only people and the opposition has. This is the difference between truth, and lie, for me.
atari-How did you hear about the large houses? And why did you become so involved? The bogus news. But you still feel like the anti-polygamy laws are just, and that our religion is bogus. That is what I am saying. I am not saying you should agree that it is the right way. I am just saying that those who are giving you your information of MORE marriages, and other "terribleness" by Warren still think rather highly of Uncle Roy. I am saying they cannot have it both ways. I have more respect for the 5 of you who never knew Uncle Roy or Warren than for the other 5000 who did, (OK, slight exaggeration) and still hate him. There is no in between for me. If it was true then, it is true now.
.atari-I don’t know if I want to explain. You seem sinister to me; pretending to be curious, but only far enough to use the info to call in the military. Phishing is what they call it. Besides, it is just about the difference between me and others who are on my side as far as freedom of marriage, but are on your side in hating Warren Jeffs. It has nothing to do with you.
fttc-I have known Warren Jeffs very well, for a long time. My defense of him is not blind. Do you not want the FLDS people to STOP following him? Your un-hatred for him doesn’t go that far does it?
4:03(silicon wafers)-I do not know what Uncle Roy said to individuals in private meetings, but I know what Uncle Rulon did. I am not sidestepping, I just hold what Uncle Rulon did in higher esteem than what Winston has spread around since his apostacy. That is simple, and obvious. Question all you want. but dont try to force, or even expect anyone else to.
atari said-"If Pedophilia and Abandonment of children is not a tenant of your faith, don't embrace it, encourage it, practice it, allow it." I dont, and neither does Warren Jeffs. Your sources of otherwise are tainted by lies.
mugs-Despite what you have heard, there has been no "date" given. For even the angels in heaven know not the time. But there have been prophesies. And none of them will go unfulfilled. My religion is as plausible as yours, if not more so. I do want to see you with our Savior in the Millenial Reign, and I believe all that can purify themselves of sin can be there. I make no claim to be already worthy. Who can? Also dont believe these lies that Uncle Roy thought President Young was "off his rocker"
mugs-Just so you dont think I deny the truth, I give a word about the April 2004 exodus prophesy. It was invented by some anti-FLDS. We found out about it the same way you did, by noticing the Cameras, and reading the paper. Same with the Y2K, the 2002 Olympics, and the old "gather at the garden", and "gather at Berry Knoll" stuff.
Fact: Warren Jeffs has never said he would not be caught.
Fact: If Warren Jeffs was wearing shorts and T-shirt I definately excuse him because he was in hiding from religious persecution.
Fact: It is O.K. for the FLDS to own red cars. It is bright red clothing that is taboo.
Fact: Girls do wear pants quite often, but usually under the dress. Besides, it was a disguise also.
Fact: Warren Jeffs used an assumed name to buy his contact lenses. He had no illegal ID
Fact: Leroy S Johnson was imprisoned in 1953, John Y Barlow was imprisoned in 1944, John Taylor died in hiding from the "law", Brigham Young was put in jail in 1875, Joseph Smith in 1838, and in 1844 when an armed mob killed him and his brother, for which no one was prosecuted. ALL FOR LIVING THEIR RELIGION. It is amazing in this society today, when harlotry, adultery, sodomy, and abortion, are all considered rights to the people. But if someone engages in performing a marriage for Religious reasons it becomes a crime so bad you can attain to the FBI top ten most wanted criminals.
Fact: This "underage" rule is only applied to polygamy, it is far more rampant among monogomists, yet ignored (and there is rarely a marriage.) Admit it, you only want the girls to wait until 18 because you hope they might "get smart" and leave. 12 out of the 13 of my married sisters were over 18. And They felt it a burden to wait!
Fact: There is has never been, or ever will be fear of Warren Jeffs forcing women or men to be FLDS, no one will leave just because he was put in jail.I am very grateful that Uncle Warren is somewhat safe. Please Keep up the heavy armed guards, there are men who have threatened his life. If it were possible, I would gladly take Warren Jeffs place behind bars. Gladly!
I just wonder what will happen if they find him innocent. Will the facts, or will public outcry decide his fate? What new charges will they file? What new law will they create? Thou shalt not be FLDS in the USA? (like they did in MO in 1830's and the Utah Territory in 1880's)
fttc- the FLDS do not communicate because they are not believed. It is rather pointless. The anti-FLDS are the REASON the FLDS are in the news.
OAS-I have heard stories of girls as young as 13 getting married, but that hasn’t happened since (long before my father was born). The youngest girl I know of getting married in my lifetime is 14, and that was extremely rare and under very special circumstaces. Many girls were "forced" to wait until they were 18 or older. In fact THE OVERWHELMING MAJORITY of girls have waited until at least 18.
I grew up FLDS, and I noticed that the girls who married young were amazingly sweet and mature, and every girl I knew wanted to get married long before they were married, even Candi and Ruth [and even Elissa]. I saw them both when they were happily married. It was a desire for divorce and pressure from Flora, Pennie and other "activists", that created their claim of being forced.
That is a claim "after the fact". (meaning: I thought it was a wonderfully good thing to do at the time, but now that I left, I have discovered how dumb I used to be and must have been forced) They chose just like my sisters did, my mothers did, and everyone else did. No one is forced.
OAS- I really appreciate your desire to understand. To answer your question of "are there any other choices?" and "The Prophet" has a revelation as to who the Lord wants a girl to marry, is this correct?"I can answer your questions together. The choices in a girls life are not "other", I have never met a girl, in the FLDS or out, that did not want to get married at some point. That POINT is the key. SHE decides that point. In the FLDS we believe that dating is guessing, and often results in promiscuity. It is also unneccessary, the Prophet can guide you to what God wants, and the man who can bless you. Sometimes the girl has been impressed who she should marry, sometimes her parents were, but girls do not get married in the FLDS until they decide they want to, their parents decide it is in her best interest, and then they go and ask the Prophet, and they all agree on who. Believe me, we love our children as much as you do or anyone else does.There have been cases of girls saying no to the Prophet's choice, and there have been cases of the parents saying no to the marriage because they did not feel right about it. When that is the case, the marriage does not happen and they try again another day. They are not threatened with damnation or dismissed from the community. I ask you, what is more important to you, your career or your child? What would you choose?
Seemed rather frustrated didnt I?
"Anyone who thinks this is not religious persecution ARE LOST!If Polygamy was not required by our religion, we would not try to live it. End of STORY IF Polygamy was not against the obviously UNCONSTITUTIONAL law, then you could get all the information that you desire about who married who, when, and even speak to them about whether they were "forced" or not. BUT it IS against the law, END of story.
“Jane Doe” [Elissa] wants to make sure that everyone knows that it is not about religion. Who is she kidding? “Jane Doe”[Elissa] and the state of Utah contend that Warren Jeffs “forced” her to have sex. How did he force her? In what way was she forced? How was she threatened? Was she threatened with monetary fine? NO! Was she threatened with imprisonment? NO! Was she threatened with bodily harm? NO! Was she threatened with death? NO! She was told that if she did not stay married to the man she said “I do” to, then she could lose her ability to procreate IN THE NEXT LIFE. What a threat! She was told that she might not be able to be something that no other religion believes is attainable anyway! Now If that isn’t religious I don’t know what is.
I KNOW that she is MORE “forced” to make this complaint, than she ever was “forced” to get married! And this is the STRONGEST case against Warren Jeffs? And he was on the FBI top ten “most wanted”? HELLOOO, anybody in there McFly? Same lies of forced marriage, welfare fraud, and abuse as were claimed in 1953. The funny thing is THOSE ARE AGAINST OUR RELIGION TOO!
mugs- The law was challenged back in 1879, and the Supreme Court ruled that it was "constitutional" based on the theory that they had to have some control on religion, or else there would be people who commit human sacrifice in the name of religion. WHICH IS BOGUS. That equates the family of Jacob as inhumane as the murderous priests of BAAL! Congress should make no law against the FREE EXERCISE of religion. We will live by the constitution, and the bill of rights, and NOT by unconstitutional laws. Our CREATOR gave us this right, NOT the government.
fttc -NICE TRY, but it IS about religious polygamy. How many teenage mothers among monogomists have older men being charged with rape SOLELY on the fact that the girl was under 18? NONE! Haven't you noticed that a judge was debarred, and that policemen were kicked off the force, not for police or judicial misconduct, but for the SOLE reason they had more than one wife!
atari said-"If everyone can wait a couple years, there's not a problem, and no reason for the law to intervene."
Make the girls wait, big deal. BUT the LAW that put Rodney in jail is a Utah state law that was not passed until 2001; AFTER his marriage was performed. That law states that no girl can get married under 18 to a man that is 10 years her senior WITHOUT PERMISSION FROM THE GOVERNMENT. Is this law against underage sex? NO! Only MARRIAGE! Why wouldn't a judge give permission? How did this become a law? (hint: anti-polygamy)
How about Kelly Fischer? would he have been convicted of anything had it not been for polygamy? OF COURSE NOT!
About Welfare "Fraud". Where is it? Why has no one in the FLDS been charged with it? Isnt it rampant as you say it is? OBVIOUSLY NOT. More lies piled on lies.
About boys being dumped in deserts. BOGUS! IF your son refused to live by the rules of the home, refused to come home at night, and ran away often, what would you do? Think hard. These boys wanted to leave, and they were obliged. I'll bet you nickels to $20 bills that every single one of them (who want to) still have contact with their parents, who love them very much.
THEFT OF PROPERY? HELLOOOO? Who did the property belong to? Who do 99.9% of the FLDS people want controlling the property? (I'll give you a hint it's NOT Bruce Wisan) All of these so called "crimes", including polygamy, are not the goal of ALL of you who want to destroy the FLDS. The great crime that you want to stop, is the crime of holding and obeying what we believe to be Gods law's above man's laws. Of course you will never admit that will you?
furnace- the Bible is a book all about people who lived in your definition of cultism. The word " cult" is harmless, unless there is harm to people. It is the anti-cult that is un-American.
I wanted to comment on what gadestring brought up, for it proves that the girls are NOT forced. All three of the scenarios gadestring defined in her post (9/8/2006 12:39 AM) (except the ultimatum/threat part) COMBINED semi-accurately describe EACH of my rebellious sisters. Rebellion and unbecoming contact with boys are always intertwined. “Saving” them, by marrying them, does not work, unless THEY believe it is the RIGHT thing to do. I had several sisters who were rebellious, (one who left, and came back) and they did not get married until they decided to settle down. I remember telling two of them that, as their brother, I was willing to give my life in defense of their virtue. All of the rebellious ones waited until they were over 18, and all but one of the unrebellious ones too, but that is an afterthought. Now, you could offer them all the money in the world to leave the FLDS, and they would not.
In the FLDS, the only reason girls married when they were teenagers, is because THEY wanted to, and making them wait affects no one except them, and their children. Making them wait until 18 means absolutely nothing to the FLDS. It is just a thinly veiled attack on our religion. Just an attempt to LESSEN the dignity of our faith; A way to make our marriages less "good" than yours.
-------------------
According to teenpregnancy.org 34% (820,000) of ALL teenage girls in the U.S. become pregnant. And a report on mafamily.org states that TWO THIRDS of them were to adult men. I am as disgusted as anyone else about teenage pregnancy to unwed mothers, or any sex without marriage. And I think it is ALWAYS the mans responsibility. But MARRIAGE by teenagers is rarely, if ever, attacked, unless it is associated with religious polygamy.
atari-In the FLDS, there is no urgency to marry at any age. The only reason for marriage is for moral FAMILY creation, and ETERNAL happiness. THAT is the goal, that is what we were taught in public and in private by Warren Jeffs, and Rulon Jeffs, and Leroy S Johnson. Sex is not the goal in our religion, an eternal and mortal family that is pleasing to God is. The age of consent to MARRY is 16 in Utah, and most other states. Utah had to ADD that extra religious polygamy persecuting law requiring the GOVERNMENT to approve marriages under 18. THAT is the law that Rodney Holm was convicted of. MARRIAGE to a girl 10 years his junior. And of course they couldnt convict him of that without proving they were married, which convicted him of bigamy also. Had there NOT been a MARRIAGE ceremony, that case would not have lasted a day.
I will acknowledge that statutory rape should be more widely prosecuted, IF there is no wedding, IF the parents do not approve, and IF the girl does not want to marry. The cases you speak of do not fit that bill, in the least. The monogomist relations that do fit that criteria are NEVER prosecuted. IF YOU will acknowlege that Polygamy, in and of itself, is not abuse, then you might start to see. I still would bet nickels to $20 bills that "Jane Doe" [Elissa] has had a thousand times much more pressure to testify against Uncle Warren than she ever did from him to get married.
The thing I dont understand, from my prospective, is the cloudy headed assumption that girls lose their freedom if they become wives and mothers. Are you not free now? For every Caroline Blackmore Jessop, there are 400 women like my mother, free to leave, but have less than a zero desire to. I know that many of the certified teachers, accountants, and registered nurses in the FLDS had both a college education and a career AFTER getting married and having children. And I bet even YOU would agree that raising children is the greatest career in the world.
gad-The law of chastity is the same as it was as taught by Uncle Rulon, and Uncle Roy, but the law is not as absolute as you state. Like food, libido can do more harm than good, if not self regulated. All I was ever taught was constraint is to the man, and not necessarily to the woman.
Brigham Young said: "The man that enters into this order by the prompting of passion, and not with a view to honor God and carry out his purposes, the curse of God will rest upon him, and that which he seems to have will be taken from him and given to those that act according to principle. Remember it." (JD 9:36)
As for child bearing, I guess I cannot reason with the idea that anyone would NOT want to bring Gods children to earth. One of my mothers had over 16 and she often lamented not having more!
Atari, and gad-The age difference is not new in "Christian" monogomy either. You just put blinders on instead of facing it. The only thing that has changed is YOUR society, where marriage is not necessary first.The truth is there have been very very few marriages at all in the last 4 years. Candi and Ruth [and Elissa] were both married previously, under the direction of Uncle Rulon. Though the ceremonies were performed by Uncle Warren. fttc keeps saying that Uncle Roy, and Uncle Rulon said they wouldn't do it anymore, but they married under 18's WAY WAY more than Uncle Warren has in the last 4 years.
Atari- Your argument is based on the argument that Polygny in and of itself is abusive to women, which is bogus. It is fact that before the Roman Empire, All societies practiced it, all the way back to Adam.
Atari-Your background, and the drive by media, makes your skin crawl when it comes to girls and Warren Jeffs. I can understand that. You have very little more respect for a great man named Leroy S Johnson. But ultimately it is a fight between truth and lies, for me.
Atari-What I was saying was that you had no interest in us, or our religion, before you saw us in the news, and the news only reports through the eyes of "mainstream" Americans, and get their information from apostates. You could not fathom a man having a dozen wives and that being a "moral" thing to do. SO you think you hold the moral high ground before you read past the headline. True?
Leroy S Johnson was a very kind, revered, and magnanimous leader of the FLDS church. He died in 1986. 99% of the people who are feeding the media now about how terrible Warren Jeffs is hold Uncle Roy in very high regard. They claim that our religion has been hijacked by Warren Jeffs, or some other man. But if you had read the headlines (And there were quite a few) back in Uncle Roy’s day, you would probably have the same opinion of him as you have of Warren Jeffs. There were people on food stamps in Uncle Roy’s day. There were young men working on construction sites. There were Jessop’s marrying Barlow’s. There were accidental deaths among children in his day. He taught the "one man" rule in his day. There were many men 'kicked out' in his day. And (for you the most appalling) there were definitely girls under 18 getting married to older men in his day.
I contend that these were acceptable and GOOD things in the sight of God. AND benefit innocent children.The religion has not changed, only people and the opposition has. This is the difference between truth, and lie, for me.
atari-How did you hear about the large houses? And why did you become so involved? The bogus news. But you still feel like the anti-polygamy laws are just, and that our religion is bogus. That is what I am saying. I am not saying you should agree that it is the right way. I am just saying that those who are giving you your information of MORE marriages, and other "terribleness" by Warren still think rather highly of Uncle Roy. I am saying they cannot have it both ways. I have more respect for the 5 of you who never knew Uncle Roy or Warren than for the other 5000 who did, (OK, slight exaggeration) and still hate him. There is no in between for me. If it was true then, it is true now.
.atari-I don’t know if I want to explain. You seem sinister to me; pretending to be curious, but only far enough to use the info to call in the military. Phishing is what they call it. Besides, it is just about the difference between me and others who are on my side as far as freedom of marriage, but are on your side in hating Warren Jeffs. It has nothing to do with you.
fttc-I have known Warren Jeffs very well, for a long time. My defense of him is not blind. Do you not want the FLDS people to STOP following him? Your un-hatred for him doesn’t go that far does it?
4:03(silicon wafers)-I do not know what Uncle Roy said to individuals in private meetings, but I know what Uncle Rulon did. I am not sidestepping, I just hold what Uncle Rulon did in higher esteem than what Winston has spread around since his apostacy. That is simple, and obvious. Question all you want. but dont try to force, or even expect anyone else to.
atari said-"If Pedophilia and Abandonment of children is not a tenant of your faith, don't embrace it, encourage it, practice it, allow it." I dont, and neither does Warren Jeffs. Your sources of otherwise are tainted by lies.
mugs-Despite what you have heard, there has been no "date" given. For even the angels in heaven know not the time. But there have been prophesies. And none of them will go unfulfilled. My religion is as plausible as yours, if not more so. I do want to see you with our Savior in the Millenial Reign, and I believe all that can purify themselves of sin can be there. I make no claim to be already worthy. Who can? Also dont believe these lies that Uncle Roy thought President Young was "off his rocker"
mugs-Just so you dont think I deny the truth, I give a word about the April 2004 exodus prophesy. It was invented by some anti-FLDS. We found out about it the same way you did, by noticing the Cameras, and reading the paper. Same with the Y2K, the 2002 Olympics, and the old "gather at the garden", and "gather at Berry Knoll" stuff.
Fact: Warren Jeffs has never said he would not be caught.
Fact: If Warren Jeffs was wearing shorts and T-shirt I definately excuse him because he was in hiding from religious persecution.
Fact: It is O.K. for the FLDS to own red cars. It is bright red clothing that is taboo.
Fact: Girls do wear pants quite often, but usually under the dress. Besides, it was a disguise also.
Fact: Warren Jeffs used an assumed name to buy his contact lenses. He had no illegal ID
Fact: Leroy S Johnson was imprisoned in 1953, John Y Barlow was imprisoned in 1944, John Taylor died in hiding from the "law", Brigham Young was put in jail in 1875, Joseph Smith in 1838, and in 1844 when an armed mob killed him and his brother, for which no one was prosecuted. ALL FOR LIVING THEIR RELIGION. It is amazing in this society today, when harlotry, adultery, sodomy, and abortion, are all considered rights to the people. But if someone engages in performing a marriage for Religious reasons it becomes a crime so bad you can attain to the FBI top ten most wanted criminals.
Fact: This "underage" rule is only applied to polygamy, it is far more rampant among monogomists, yet ignored (and there is rarely a marriage.) Admit it, you only want the girls to wait until 18 because you hope they might "get smart" and leave. 12 out of the 13 of my married sisters were over 18. And They felt it a burden to wait!
Fact: There is has never been, or ever will be fear of Warren Jeffs forcing women or men to be FLDS, no one will leave just because he was put in jail.I am very grateful that Uncle Warren is somewhat safe. Please Keep up the heavy armed guards, there are men who have threatened his life. If it were possible, I would gladly take Warren Jeffs place behind bars. Gladly!
I just wonder what will happen if they find him innocent. Will the facts, or will public outcry decide his fate? What new charges will they file? What new law will they create? Thou shalt not be FLDS in the USA? (like they did in MO in 1830's and the Utah Territory in 1880's)
fttc- the FLDS do not communicate because they are not believed. It is rather pointless. The anti-FLDS are the REASON the FLDS are in the news.
OAS-I have heard stories of girls as young as 13 getting married, but that hasn’t happened since (long before my father was born). The youngest girl I know of getting married in my lifetime is 14, and that was extremely rare and under very special circumstaces. Many girls were "forced" to wait until they were 18 or older. In fact THE OVERWHELMING MAJORITY of girls have waited until at least 18.
I grew up FLDS, and I noticed that the girls who married young were amazingly sweet and mature, and every girl I knew wanted to get married long before they were married, even Candi and Ruth [and even Elissa]. I saw them both when they were happily married. It was a desire for divorce and pressure from Flora, Pennie and other "activists", that created their claim of being forced.
That is a claim "after the fact". (meaning: I thought it was a wonderfully good thing to do at the time, but now that I left, I have discovered how dumb I used to be and must have been forced) They chose just like my sisters did, my mothers did, and everyone else did. No one is forced.
OAS- I really appreciate your desire to understand. To answer your question of "are there any other choices?" and "The Prophet" has a revelation as to who the Lord wants a girl to marry, is this correct?"I can answer your questions together. The choices in a girls life are not "other", I have never met a girl, in the FLDS or out, that did not want to get married at some point. That POINT is the key. SHE decides that point. In the FLDS we believe that dating is guessing, and often results in promiscuity. It is also unneccessary, the Prophet can guide you to what God wants, and the man who can bless you. Sometimes the girl has been impressed who she should marry, sometimes her parents were, but girls do not get married in the FLDS until they decide they want to, their parents decide it is in her best interest, and then they go and ask the Prophet, and they all agree on who. Believe me, we love our children as much as you do or anyone else does.There have been cases of girls saying no to the Prophet's choice, and there have been cases of the parents saying no to the marriage because they did not feel right about it. When that is the case, the marriage does not happen and they try again another day. They are not threatened with damnation or dismissed from the community. I ask you, what is more important to you, your career or your child? What would you choose?
Seemed rather frustrated didnt I?
Tuesday, May 13, 2008
Top 5 Lies about the FLDS
Lie #1 Girls are forced to marry
No person was ever forced to get married. That is so ridiculously untrue it should not even need to be discussed, but it is so universally believed that it is used to justify the bigotry that exists and the genocide that is being attempted in Texas. No one is forced to do anything in the FLDS after they reach an age to be accountable for themselves, and that is long before marriage. Marriage is the greatest and most important step in life, and is revered more within the FLDS church than it is outside the church. The women who have left the church and say they were once forced to get married are only saying it to get attention and appease the preconceived perceptions of the general public. I feel sorry for those who declare this after they leave. The memories of their whole lives have change to having been forced, abused, and miserable. I do not doubt that they are miserable now, because you cannot lie as they do and be happy. To blame their misery on their former church is ridiculous. It brings me to pity them. There is as much freedom in the FLDS as anywhere else. You always have the freedom to leave if you want. To say they mourn the loss when one leaves is an understatement, but no one is forced to stay. If you do not want to obey the FLDS gospel, feel free to leave; just don’t try to force those who want to stay to leave too. OK? They can choose too can't they? Let them choose to believe what they want, and get on with your own life.
Lie #2 The FLDS exists by pillaging the government for welfare.
This is so absolutely untrue it is laughable. I first heard the term “bleeding the beast” by reading the newspaper, it did not come from the FLDS. The fact that some of the FLDS people have received Social Security, food stamps, and medical benefits from the government is true, but never did the leaders tell the people to do it. In fact the opposite is true. The leaders often recommended staying off government aid. In Texas there was no one on any assistance at all unless you count Social Security. Until now. To think that children were being born for the purpose of taking your tax money is ridiculously stupid. The State governments have been meticulous in investigating all assistance in Hildale and Colorado City, probably more than in any other community in the U.S. because of the continuous accusations, but despite the assumptions there has not even been one case of welfare fraud charged against an FLDS family.
Lie #3 The FLDS do not educate their children
The FLDS believe, as all civil people do, that children should be educated, and that to, by their parents and whomever their parents want them to be educated by. Girls are given the same opportunity as boys, and I believe that there are no better teachers in the world than those in the FLDS church. More girls graduated from high school than boys. And never are the children pulled out of school because they don’t want them to be too smart. Education is the most important thing for everyone on earth, and you can be educated without going to liberal College. The most important education you can get is how to get back to heaven. We are taught that obedience creates happiness, but that does not mean the children are forced to believe as their parents do. They want them to believe as they do, they teach them to believe, but they do what they want with that education. Would you teach your children that what you believe in is wrong? Why would you want the FLDS to?
Lie #4 The FLDS hate black people
We do not hate anyone. We believe that the Negro have just as much right to the salvation of heaven as we do, just not the rights to the priesthood. Joseph Smith said this: “Elder Hyde inquired the situation of the negro. I replied, they came into the world slaves, mentally and physically. Change their situation with the whites, and they would be like them. They have souls, and are subjects of salvation. Go into Cincinnati or any city, and find an educated Negro, who rides in his carriage, and you will see a man who has risen by the powers of his own mind to his exalted state of respectability. The slaves in Washington are more refined than many in high places, and the black boys will take the shine off many of those they brush and wait on” (History of the Church 5:217) (Read by Warren Jeffs in History Class)
We believe that the Negro people are our brothers and sisters, all descendants like we are, of Adam, and Noah. But everyone is given different obstacles to overcome. We believe that all people who are born into this world were put here for the same reason, to obey God. We all will be judged by what we do, what we say, and what we think, according to what we have been taught. We also will be judged by what we teach our children. This is the same no matter where you were born, or what color you are. We believe in freedom for all. We believe we lived before we came to earth, and it is there that we were given our calling. God chose our color, our nationality, and our family not by accident, nor against our will. For the black race, they must overcome the curse they were born with. For us, we must live up to, or overcome our heritage also. The black race cannot be a part of the Priesthood family in this life, but we hope to see as many as will pass their own trials and purify their own lives in the highest heaven too. I believe there will be many.
Lie #5 All people besides those in the FLDS will go to hell
The Savior of the world died on the cross for all of Adams children, and that almost all will go to heaven; Sons of Perdition being the lone exception. All will have the happiness that they earn here, in the next life. They will be happier there then they are here. We believe that there are at least three heavens, or degrees of heaven, and that if you want to go to the highest, you must do what it takes to get there, you must sacrifice all earthly things. To us that is what obedience is. Jesus died so that all will be resurrected and have physical bodies again. And His sacrifice gives us the opportunity to save ourselves through righteousness. You will be just as good, or just as bad, after you die as you are here. You will dwell in heaven with those who you are the most like in character.
No person was ever forced to get married. That is so ridiculously untrue it should not even need to be discussed, but it is so universally believed that it is used to justify the bigotry that exists and the genocide that is being attempted in Texas. No one is forced to do anything in the FLDS after they reach an age to be accountable for themselves, and that is long before marriage. Marriage is the greatest and most important step in life, and is revered more within the FLDS church than it is outside the church. The women who have left the church and say they were once forced to get married are only saying it to get attention and appease the preconceived perceptions of the general public. I feel sorry for those who declare this after they leave. The memories of their whole lives have change to having been forced, abused, and miserable. I do not doubt that they are miserable now, because you cannot lie as they do and be happy. To blame their misery on their former church is ridiculous. It brings me to pity them. There is as much freedom in the FLDS as anywhere else. You always have the freedom to leave if you want. To say they mourn the loss when one leaves is an understatement, but no one is forced to stay. If you do not want to obey the FLDS gospel, feel free to leave; just don’t try to force those who want to stay to leave too. OK? They can choose too can't they? Let them choose to believe what they want, and get on with your own life.
Lie #2 The FLDS exists by pillaging the government for welfare.
This is so absolutely untrue it is laughable. I first heard the term “bleeding the beast” by reading the newspaper, it did not come from the FLDS. The fact that some of the FLDS people have received Social Security, food stamps, and medical benefits from the government is true, but never did the leaders tell the people to do it. In fact the opposite is true. The leaders often recommended staying off government aid. In Texas there was no one on any assistance at all unless you count Social Security. Until now. To think that children were being born for the purpose of taking your tax money is ridiculously stupid. The State governments have been meticulous in investigating all assistance in Hildale and Colorado City, probably more than in any other community in the U.S. because of the continuous accusations, but despite the assumptions there has not even been one case of welfare fraud charged against an FLDS family.
Lie #3 The FLDS do not educate their children
The FLDS believe, as all civil people do, that children should be educated, and that to, by their parents and whomever their parents want them to be educated by. Girls are given the same opportunity as boys, and I believe that there are no better teachers in the world than those in the FLDS church. More girls graduated from high school than boys. And never are the children pulled out of school because they don’t want them to be too smart. Education is the most important thing for everyone on earth, and you can be educated without going to liberal College. The most important education you can get is how to get back to heaven. We are taught that obedience creates happiness, but that does not mean the children are forced to believe as their parents do. They want them to believe as they do, they teach them to believe, but they do what they want with that education. Would you teach your children that what you believe in is wrong? Why would you want the FLDS to?
Lie #4 The FLDS hate black people
We do not hate anyone. We believe that the Negro have just as much right to the salvation of heaven as we do, just not the rights to the priesthood. Joseph Smith said this: “Elder Hyde inquired the situation of the negro. I replied, they came into the world slaves, mentally and physically. Change their situation with the whites, and they would be like them. They have souls, and are subjects of salvation. Go into Cincinnati or any city, and find an educated Negro, who rides in his carriage, and you will see a man who has risen by the powers of his own mind to his exalted state of respectability. The slaves in Washington are more refined than many in high places, and the black boys will take the shine off many of those they brush and wait on” (History of the Church 5:217) (Read by Warren Jeffs in History Class)
We believe that the Negro people are our brothers and sisters, all descendants like we are, of Adam, and Noah. But everyone is given different obstacles to overcome. We believe that all people who are born into this world were put here for the same reason, to obey God. We all will be judged by what we do, what we say, and what we think, according to what we have been taught. We also will be judged by what we teach our children. This is the same no matter where you were born, or what color you are. We believe in freedom for all. We believe we lived before we came to earth, and it is there that we were given our calling. God chose our color, our nationality, and our family not by accident, nor against our will. For the black race, they must overcome the curse they were born with. For us, we must live up to, or overcome our heritage also. The black race cannot be a part of the Priesthood family in this life, but we hope to see as many as will pass their own trials and purify their own lives in the highest heaven too. I believe there will be many.
Lie #5 All people besides those in the FLDS will go to hell
The Savior of the world died on the cross for all of Adams children, and that almost all will go to heaven; Sons of Perdition being the lone exception. All will have the happiness that they earn here, in the next life. They will be happier there then they are here. We believe that there are at least three heavens, or degrees of heaven, and that if you want to go to the highest, you must do what it takes to get there, you must sacrifice all earthly things. To us that is what obedience is. Jesus died so that all will be resurrected and have physical bodies again. And His sacrifice gives us the opportunity to save ourselves through righteousness. You will be just as good, or just as bad, after you die as you are here. You will dwell in heaven with those who you are the most like in character.
Saturday, May 10, 2008
FLDS_Guy speaks out
[I want to thank the author of Muslimmatters.org for notifying me of this post]
"I’m an FLDS male member currently living in Colorado City, and I would like to try to dispel some of the horrendous rumors that abound about our people.
We absolutely DO NOT condone child abuse. This crap about “breaking” babies is just that — absolute complete lies. I would immediately call 911 if I witnessed anyone doing that to a child. Our children are considered the most precious gifts that God gives to us, and are to be treated as such.
"Young girls are not forced into marriage. They are asked if they have anyone in mind, and can say “no” to a marriage if they want. We do not believe that a girl must be married young. Most are married over the age of 18.
"We’re not a bunch of brainwashed dunces. We believe in hard work, learning as much as possible, and educating ourselves in every area that will be useful to us. For example, I’m a website and software programmer. We highly value education, and I’m sure you people out their know the dire state the country’s public education system is in.
"The women are not held captive at home only to be abused and commanded by the husband. That’s complete crap. We’ve got loads of women who work jobs. I’d bet about 1/3 of the EMT’s in our town are women. Nearly all of them have their own cell phones, even the unmarried teenagers. It’s not like their held with no communication.
"Teenage boys are NOT routinely dumped on the road to reduce competition for brides. They leave on their own, and their parents yearn and love and feel after them. This whole “lost boys” thing was a thing that Dan Fischer, a bitter ex-member came up with. These boys who have left consider it an insult to them.
"Another thing that makes me laugh is this so called “bleeding of the beast” we allegedly practice. Why, bless my heart, I’ve never heard of the term except from people quoting how they heard about it from Flora Jessop or someone like that. I’ve NEVER heard about it from one of our members, and especially not from the leaders. I’m not on any welfare, I pay taxes, and I work hard for what I get.
"Now, there have been people in our religion who have abused it to try to gratify their desires. This is wrong for them to do so. If a 16 year old girl is being beaten by her husband, that ABSOLUTELY should be investigated, but why raid an entire community? We do not claim that every single member is perfect, but what religion does? The may very well be, and have been, abusers, and where found, they are turned over to the law enforcement.
I suggest that anyone who wishes to learn more of the truth, you can visit fldsview.blogspot.com (I’m not the author of it, btw).Also, check out http://www.captivefldschildren.org/
Our religion teaches peace, love, and forgiveness. We’re all God’s children, and He is just. We believe in working through kindness instead of force, and that love should be the guiding factor in all we do."
He answers questions over there, so check it out.
"I’m an FLDS male member currently living in Colorado City, and I would like to try to dispel some of the horrendous rumors that abound about our people.
We absolutely DO NOT condone child abuse. This crap about “breaking” babies is just that — absolute complete lies. I would immediately call 911 if I witnessed anyone doing that to a child. Our children are considered the most precious gifts that God gives to us, and are to be treated as such.
"Young girls are not forced into marriage. They are asked if they have anyone in mind, and can say “no” to a marriage if they want. We do not believe that a girl must be married young. Most are married over the age of 18.
"We’re not a bunch of brainwashed dunces. We believe in hard work, learning as much as possible, and educating ourselves in every area that will be useful to us. For example, I’m a website and software programmer. We highly value education, and I’m sure you people out their know the dire state the country’s public education system is in.
"The women are not held captive at home only to be abused and commanded by the husband. That’s complete crap. We’ve got loads of women who work jobs. I’d bet about 1/3 of the EMT’s in our town are women. Nearly all of them have their own cell phones, even the unmarried teenagers. It’s not like their held with no communication.
"Teenage boys are NOT routinely dumped on the road to reduce competition for brides. They leave on their own, and their parents yearn and love and feel after them. This whole “lost boys” thing was a thing that Dan Fischer, a bitter ex-member came up with. These boys who have left consider it an insult to them.
"Another thing that makes me laugh is this so called “bleeding of the beast” we allegedly practice. Why, bless my heart, I’ve never heard of the term except from people quoting how they heard about it from Flora Jessop or someone like that. I’ve NEVER heard about it from one of our members, and especially not from the leaders. I’m not on any welfare, I pay taxes, and I work hard for what I get.
"Now, there have been people in our religion who have abused it to try to gratify their desires. This is wrong for them to do so. If a 16 year old girl is being beaten by her husband, that ABSOLUTELY should be investigated, but why raid an entire community? We do not claim that every single member is perfect, but what religion does? The may very well be, and have been, abusers, and where found, they are turned over to the law enforcement.
I suggest that anyone who wishes to learn more of the truth, you can visit fldsview.blogspot.com (I’m not the author of it, btw).Also, check out http://www.captivefldschildren.org/
Our religion teaches peace, love, and forgiveness. We’re all God’s children, and He is just. We believe in working through kindness instead of force, and that love should be the guiding factor in all we do."
He answers questions over there, so check it out.
Subscribe to:
Posts (Atom)