IF

If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you;
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,
But make allowance for their doubting too:
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
Or, being lied about, don't deal in lies,
Or being hated don't give way to hating,
And yet don't look too good, nor talk too wise;

If you can dream---and not make dreams your master;
If you can think---and not make thoughts your aim,
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same:.
If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken,
And stoop and build'em up with worn-out tools;

If you can make one heap of all your winnings
And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
And lose, and start again at your beginnings,
And never breathe a word about your loss:
If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
To serve your turn long after they are gone,
And so hold on when there is nothing in you
Except the Will which says to them: "Hold on!"

If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,
Or walk with Kings---nor lose the common touch,
If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you,
If all men count with you, but none too much:
If you can fill the unforgiving minute
With sixty seconds' worth of distance run,
Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
And---which is more---you'll be a Man, my son!

-Rudyard Kipling

Thank You Father!

Q and A with FLDS mothers

How in the world do you make sure each child gets quality one-on-one time in such a large family group?

From lover of the truth:
The simple answer to that question is: We don't live for ourselves! We live for others, for our children and for our sister wives, Husbands live to bless the work, Wives live to bless the husbands, sister wives and children, they are much to engaged to worry about who's sleeping with who. Who's servicing who, who's got what, and who is loved the most. A true husband loves everyone, and it's never been a truer saying than with each endeavor to love, the capacity to love grows larger. The more children in the home, the more love in us. We are here to make heaven on earth, the only competition being who can do the most for another. So, we don't live for ourselves. I know what your saying, "how is that possible?", well, it takes work, and it takes dedication, it takes overcoming the inherent faults within us. When it becomes first tendency to live and love that way, it is beautiful. I hope that answered that question, the children get much more one on one time than they would in a single relationship, they have many mothers, and they can go to any one of them and know that that Mother loves them, and will do all she can to bless them.

Do you celebrate Mothers day?

From lover of the truth again:
To answer the question, No, We don't celebrate any certain day as Mother's day, again Mothers are very special every day, and most that you talk to would tell you that they feel that way. It's tradition to make one day for Thanksgiving-Father's Day-Mothers Day. Every day we should be thankful, every day we should thanks God for our husbands, wives, mothers, and fathers. That's how we feel, that's how we live.

Did any of the young women ever desire to have careers or lives outside the compound? Was it discouraged or flat out denied?

From lover of the truth:
Did you hear about Lorie Jessop, she is an EMT-I!! I don't know if you saw it, but yes, if the ladies would like to do something and have their hearts set upon it, then they are allowed free choice. There is not, and I repeat not any force in our religion!! If there is somebody who was, then I'm sorry they or the person who forced them PLAIN AND SIMPLY was pretending to live our religion and wasn't truly. There are many nurses, FNP, Midwives, School Teachers, Book Keepers, EMT's, and on and on and on in our communities, that are women. If a woman wants out, then she can leave, as parents, when they are still minors, we have to be responsible for them, but even then I have never seen any of the people I know force them to stay. Rather, I've seen parents fast, pray, and go out at all hours of the night to retrieve them, and offer them a loving home to come to. I've seen the girls leave, I've seen some come back, I've seen some gone for good. There is no force in our religion!!

Isn't the prophet supposed to choose for you?”

Anon FLDS mother:
When I was married.. I was asked by the Prophet "how do you feel about marrying so'n'so? I replied " I feel fine about that" I knew who he was although I didn't "know him".I think this is what is meant by most of our women when they say they "chose" their Husbands. Although there are some couples that "chose each other" in many cases they were sent away to repent and later married by the Prophet.I have a wonderful life.. I am still the only wife..but I am praying that we can be blessed with another lady in the family. My Husband told me that it is ok for the wife to pray for a sister wife..but as for the Husband it is no concern of his until he is invited to live it.

[Insert by pligchild: "choosing each other" is dating without permission. I know a few that felt impressed who they should marry, and married that man]

I would like to know if FLDS folks get social security cards. I would like to know if they have birth certificates. I would like to know if the children from spiritual marriages are on welfare and if the women are registered with the welfare system as a single mother.I would like to know if they file tax returns and if they do are they claiming to be single mothers. I would like to know if these women will get the stimulus package from the government for all of their children and do they have to hand over this money to their spiritual husbands. Thank you.

From anon FLDS mother:
Everyone has Birth Cirt's. and S.S. cards...and as far as the welfare goes I can only answer for what I know.The only plural family that I personally am aware of..when they did apply for F.S. & Medical it was. Husband, Wife #1,Wife #2,Wife #3.etc..they applied as a family.I looked at their form as I was asked to vouch for knowing them. Three of the ladies in that family were related to me.As for my own family..(only wife) yes we were on F.S. & Medical for about 1 1/2 years as we fell on hard times. My Husband lost his job..I was a stay at home Mother and our two older sons supported the family until we got back on our feet. We got off welfare as soon as we could as my Husband referred to it as the "government tit" and hated the idea of asking them for help.

Carol (non FLDS fundamentalist)
Yes, we do get social security cards. Yes, we do get birth certificates. Some children are on welfare, some aren't depending on the beliefs of the parents. Yes, even in this group different families believe differently on things like that. Yes, we do file tax returns and what else can we claim, if the government doesn't recognize the plural marriage? Yes, we will receive the stimulus package, but not likely for all the children. Maybe one or two. And if the plural wife chooses she can keep the money. This is just one perspective, there are definitely many more.

Any woman who leaves the FLDS and exposes the trauma they experienced are exaggerating and lying because they are blinded by bitterness and jealously. ?

Carol:
I was talking from my perspective, and I was Honest to my knowledge. I know there are some men that really are that horrible to their families. But it is not the norm. And I said some of it could have happened. But I will say yes, I do believe they are hateful, jealous and exaggerating. I will make no compromise on that because I know from experience how a person(s) can seem from the hateful, jealous side. And when you are enclosed in that little world, you tend to blow things WAY out of proportion. I am not denying things like this have happened. They have, but it tends to be the ones that are NOT living their religion. Is my answer any better??

[From Pligchild: "there are some men that really are that horrible to their families" the FLDS send them out when discovered]

Please explain to me why handicapped or severely ill children are seen as (for lack of a better word)products of their mothers' disobedience to the prophet and God? Isn't every child perfect and loved by God equally?

Anon FLDS mother:
That is not true. We were told by Uncle Rulon (our Dear Prophet) that the children that are born with handicaps are the MOST PRECIOUS spirits of our Father in Heaven..and that he sent them to the earth that way so that they could NOT be let astray and that when they returned unto him they would be Pure and Innocent. He also went on to say that the spirits in heaven have a choice as to whether accept a body that is handicapped or refuse it.

Why would Carolyn say that her husband and sister wives told her that she had a handicapped son because she was disobedient?

Anon FLDS:
..I know for a fact that Merrill's oldest son has a disables daughter (from wife #2) and they have a picture plaque in their front entryway that states how blessed they feel as a family to be chosen by God to have such a precious spirit come into their lives..that the Lord trusted them enough to give them this special child that would need lots of care. I can see where a jealous wife could say hurtful things to another wife..but it is hard for me to swallow that Merrill would say such things as he knows and understands the same teachings that I do.

The Prophet Joseph Smiths said: Do NOT wish evil on those that persecute us or do harm to us..for when you see what they go through as a punishment for their wrongs against his anointed..We will mourn and pray for them. Because it will be so terrible...Our Dear Prophet Uncle John Y. Barlow said:That the Lord showed him the destruction's and what would become of the wicked...and it was so terrible that he plead with the Lord to close the vision..because he could not stand to see any more.So.. I can only speak for myself, but..I am praying that the people that are persecuting our people would "WAKE UP and REPENT" of their wrongs before it is to late.I do not wish harm on "CPS" or the "OFFICIALS" that are heading this campaign against us.. but I DO PRAY that the LORDS WILL, will be done on earth as it is in HEAVEN. When he says ENOUGH..then he will bring an end to the wrongs that are brought against his people.

Excellent Radio Interview

Listen to this: http://www.theedgeam.com/political/main.htm
Thanks SAM!

Some notes:
My aunt Susan was five and died in the raid in 1953
Every one of the disputed minors are not minors.
The name of the town Rozita was from is Colorado Springs
The 23 year old who was taken as a child was interviewed by the Associated Press before she was taken. (As well as Dan Jessop) Watch it here: http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=CPDpuxFluf0
They have been forced to “incriminate” themselves with the DNA testing garbage; the mothers have been telling the truth all along

Couple things that are slightly inaccurate about the interview:
-There was no informant inside the ranch, the sherriff David Doran had a "former member" as his informant, likely Flora Jessop (How do you tell she is lying? Her lips move)
-There was a slight confrontation between the kneeling and praying men and the police at the temple. Two men were arrested for getting in the way of them, the rest were held “at bay” with machine guns as they prayed.
-I saw the CPS in Arizona do an admirable job when Flora got my sister Fawn to claim abuse, so not all of the CPS are “sadistic”

Link to article with mental health worker letters:
http://www.sltrib.com/polygamy/ci_9238520
Link to petition:
http://www.thepetitionsite.com/2/free-the-innocent-flds

The Appeal

Today was a wonderful blessing, for Heavenly Father has touched the hearts of three appellate judges. As is well known I am sure.

I am not completely relieved; for as Vera Black
found out in 1954, it can be worse the second time.

May he touch more, like those who voted "about time" on this poll----------->

Blood Atonement

No doctrine of Mormon theology is more misunderstood, and feared, than that of blood atonement. This is mostly due to the apostate, murderous, John D Lee. Who masterminded an attack on a group of people in the southern Utah hilltop called "Mountain Meadow" It was indeed a massacre, and, although many believe John D Lee when he wrote it was sanctioned by Brigham Young through the doctrine of blood atonement, he was lying. A liar, a murderer, and an apostate, I really don’t worry much about justice for him.

Blood atonement is in essence capital punishment. It is an answer to justice. It is a law that is to punish a guilty person for a very serious crime, as capital punishment is in the justice system now. If a man is a murderer, he cannot be forgiven in this life at all, no matter what else he does. He must give his life in an effort, on his part, to atone for his sin. He needs to have his blood actually shed upon the ground as an act of atonement, in an effort of repentance.
Blood atonement was also taught by Brigham Young to be necessary for the sin of adultery. This is not universally the case, as even a repentant adulterer can be baptized IF he or she can repent before being sealed through Priesthood marriage.(D&C42:24-25) Once a man is ordained as an elder, and is sealed to his wife or wives by the Priesthood, and then commits adultery, his sin necessitates blood atonement. He cannot become baptized again after that sin, so he must either find his way somewhere else, or atone by giving his life. The same for a woman. This is what “destroyed” is referring to in Section 132 of the Doctrine and Covenants.

This is a law of God that the people of ancient Israel lived when there was no other government over them. Achan was the first documented case. Some say that it was observed in the Utah territory during the days when Brigham Young was the Prophet. But when there is another government over the people which govern these things, they are subject to them. So those who want to atone by blood for adultery CANNOT at this time unless the civil government passes the law and administers it.

Yea, yea, I bet some of you are saying. Why cant you perform blood atonement that is against the law, if you allow polygny which is against the law? Simple. One administers life, the other takes it.

Speaking of blood atonement, this was actually written in the Supreme Court Decision that upheld the anti-Polygamy law:

"The offence, if committed in England or Wales, was made punishable in the civil courts, and the penalty was death."

And, the court noted, in 1788, when Virginia passed an act establishing religious freedom, its next bit of business was to adopt the English law banning polygamy -- death penalty included.

Amen

"The pain, the hurt, the loneliness and the emptiness of having nothing more than the smell of an empty pillow, an empty chair at the table and the giggles of a waking child were well known to me and drove me daily on as I'm sure it drove the Mothers on over the past endless nights of torment."

The First Amendment

Religious freedom, freedom of religion, what a term! When the founders of this great nation added the Bill of rights to the Constitution this was the very first thing in the very first one. What do you suppose they meant by “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof”?

How much religion can you have? How much freedom?

Back in the early 1800’s a young boy found a book and established a religion. It is plain to anyone that this religion got under a lot of peoples skin. It began with just other religions, and then spread through all areas, including government officials. The teachings of this church never sanctioned violence, disputations, or intolerance. It only taught that those who choose to be members abide by the strictest of laws, and those who didn’t to leave.

Still people hated and persecuted the people of this church. All manner of lies and slander and vicious accusations were heaved at this church, many lawsuits were filed, and many criminal accusations were charged, and not one of these was true. It is historical fact.

This angered those who hated this church to a feverish pitch. They pushed the civil leaders to make laws to make it illegal to be a member of the church. They felt it was their duty to stop this religion even if they had to kill the members. And so they did, they killed many, including innocent children and the boy prophet who brought it forth. Not one of the killers faced any type of real justice for their murders because they were doing the world a favor.

Can it not be obvious that they were doing the devil a favor?

The people moved west, and so did the devil. In fact right before the Civil War the US government sent the army to put down these people. If you read the true history, you will find that the church never taught anything but the greatest peace. Never was anyone approved of hurting another except in obvious self defense.

So angered were the people who hated this religion they puked and puked and puked up all the lies and dreadful accusations their evil minds could imagine. They enraged the people who made laws to create laws to stop the free exercise of this religion. The laws were obviously against the first amendment, but they were upheld because of the sheer volume of the screams of those who puked.

They were doing the world a favor.

No person has ever been injured by living this religion. No person who left the religion was ever persecuted by those who were obeying the religion. The facts are there, and easy to see. Never was anyone stopped from doing good, but those who did wrong became nonmembers.

The people went into hiding because of the persecution. More and more laws were added to stop this religion but yet it still, to this day, survives, and will continue to survive as God said it would.

This religion teaches the most pure, biblical, moral, and strict teachings known to man. There is no compromise with wrong, but charity in its fullest sense of the word.

The most hated, and fought thing about this religion is not plural wives, it is not "under age" marriage, but it is the fact that there is one man on earth who is the leader of this church. It is obvious. This may be argued all day long by all different types of people, but all who hate this church have only one thing in common, and that is hatred for its leader. The fact that he is innocent of any real crime against anyone, no matter how many lawsuits and criminal charges are heaved at him does not matter.

They think they are doing the world a favor.

So I ask again. How much religion, and how much freedom, is guaranteed by the first amendment?

Ghosts!

I wrote this short story a couple of years ago, yet unfinished:

“Mother, mother!” cried little Al as he rushed into the kitchen of the humble little home, almost knocking over the piles of freshly folded clothing sitting in piles all about. “Don’t let them hurt me!” and grabbing her dress he climbed around her to hide himself in it. Mother, as surprised as could be, nearly jumped when he first yelled. “What is it, my son? Who is trying to hurt you?” And little sister, sitting in the high chair, jumped and then began to giggle. As the moments crept by and no one else entered the room; Mother soon began again her combing of a little princess’ hair. Al did not come out, or let go of her dress, but was frightened as could be. Soon the littlest one was lifted from her chair and set upon her chubby little feet, though she did not go away but seeing her brother went to share in his hiding place. Mother turned and crouched wrapping her arms around her son with a warmth that all children to angels know. “What is it, no one is here, who was chasing you?” He looked up into her smile, and her calm, sweet voice and beautiful bright eyes took the fear out of him and he relaxed into her arms. But as he began to speak, he tensed up and grabbing his mother tight and rather shouted, “Ghosts, mother, ghosts! The neighbor boy told me that ghosts were after me and all around me!”. “Oh”, the mother calmly smiled, while quietly whispering a prayer of thanks as well as for help to instruct her little son on so great a subject. “There is nothing to fear from ghosts my dear, for they cannot harm you without your help.” Puzzled, Al stopped, looked up at his mother with questions in his eyes, he let go of her, and pondered for what seemed to him quite a while. Mother, seeing his puzzled eyes and rumpled nose, then said “Help us finish putting away your clothing, and I will tell you about these ghosts” As he was walking with the last bundle in his arms he began thinking of the times that he heard of a ghost talked about in Sunday school. He returned to his mother and asked “What is the Holy Ghost?” She smiled, and took his hand and walked to her chair, and sitting him and his sister beside her began:
“Ghosts are spirits of people. We cannot see them because we have bodies, but they can see us and are all around us. Even you have a spirit in you, a ghost that is you. It was you even before you had a body that we can all see. You were a child of Heavenly Father and Mother as a spirit before you became my child in your body.” Much more puzzled the boy asked, “Can I come out of me?” “Well, my sweet little boy, your ghost was out of your body for a very long time before you got in, and you must go out again someday, but you just got in, and so I suggest you stay”

My heart

If you people only knew how hard it is to listen and watch the news is for me somtimes, you would excuse my bad writing, and my dumb conclusions.

I have to go to work every day and right here in the company I work for there is not one man who comes close to holding up to the moral standards that I strive to. And I am nothing compared to the men in the FLDS church. To know that little children and angel mothers are being rung through a wringer every day by people with no clue as to how high the moral standards are within that church; to me it is no different than lighting the streets of Rome with their hearts. Stealing custody of the best treated, most well loved children on the planet and threatening angel mothers with the loss of their children forever if they hold on to their religion. It almost is too much for my little foolish heart to bear.

My Old Blog Posts

Back when I wrote this blog before, I had frequented the texaxpolygamy blog. I don't know why but I saved alot of what I wrote on my computer. In looking back at them I thought they were interesting maybe you will too. Here are some...

"Anyone who thinks this is not religious persecution ARE LOST!If Polygamy was not required by our religion, we would not try to live it. End of STORY IF Polygamy was not against the obviously UNCONSTITUTIONAL law, then you could get all the information that you desire about who married who, when, and even speak to them about whether they were "forced" or not. BUT it IS against the law, END of story.

“Jane Doe” [Elissa] wants to make sure that everyone knows that it is not about religion. Who is she kidding? “Jane Doe”[Elissa] and the state of Utah contend that Warren Jeffs “forced” her to have sex. How did he force her? In what way was she forced? How was she threatened? Was she threatened with monetary fine? NO! Was she threatened with imprisonment? NO! Was she threatened with bodily harm? NO! Was she threatened with death? NO! She was told that if she did not stay married to the man she said “I do” to, then she could lose her ability to procreate IN THE NEXT LIFE. What a threat! She was told that she might not be able to be something that no other religion believes is attainable anyway! Now If that isn’t religious I don’t know what is.

I KNOW that she is MORE “forced” to make this complaint, than she ever was “forced” to get married! And this is the STRONGEST case against Warren Jeffs? And he was on the FBI top ten “most wanted”? HELLOOO, anybody in there McFly? Same lies of forced marriage, welfare fraud, and abuse as were claimed in 1953. The funny thing is THOSE ARE AGAINST OUR RELIGION TOO!

mugs- The law was challenged back in 1879, and the Supreme Court ruled that it was "constitutional" based on the theory that they had to have some control on religion, or else there would be people who commit human sacrifice in the name of religion. WHICH IS BOGUS. That equates the family of Jacob as inhumane as the murderous priests of BAAL! Congress should make no law against the FREE EXERCISE of religion. We will live by the constitution, and the bill of rights, and NOT by unconstitutional laws. Our CREATOR gave us this right, NOT the government.

fttc -NICE TRY, but it IS about religious polygamy. How many teenage mothers among monogomists have older men being charged with rape SOLELY on the fact that the girl was under 18? NONE! Haven't you noticed that a judge was debarred, and that policemen were kicked off the force, not for police or judicial misconduct, but for the SOLE reason they had more than one wife!

atari said-"If everyone can wait a couple years, there's not a problem, and no reason for the law to intervene."

Make the girls wait, big deal. BUT the LAW that put Rodney in jail is a Utah state law that was not passed until 2001; AFTER his marriage was performed. That law states that no girl can get married under 18 to a man that is 10 years her senior WITHOUT PERMISSION FROM THE GOVERNMENT. Is this law against underage sex? NO! Only MARRIAGE! Why wouldn't a judge give permission? How did this become a law? (hint: anti-polygamy)

How about Kelly Fischer? would he have been convicted of anything had it not been for polygamy? OF COURSE NOT!

About Welfare "Fraud". Where is it? Why has no one in the FLDS been charged with it? Isnt it rampant as you say it is? OBVIOUSLY NOT. More lies piled on lies.

About boys being dumped in deserts. BOGUS! IF your son refused to live by the rules of the home, refused to come home at night, and ran away often, what would you do? Think hard. These boys wanted to leave, and they were obliged. I'll bet you nickels to $20 bills that every single one of them (who want to) still have contact with their parents, who love them very much.

THEFT OF PROPERY? HELLOOOO? Who did the property belong to? Who do 99.9% of the FLDS people want controlling the property? (I'll give you a hint it's NOT Bruce Wisan) All of these so called "crimes", including polygamy, are not the goal of ALL of you who want to destroy the FLDS. The great crime that you want to stop, is the crime of holding and obeying what we believe to be Gods law's above man's laws. Of course you will never admit that will you?

furnace- the Bible is a book all about people who lived in your definition of cultism. The word " cult" is harmless, unless there is harm to people. It is the anti-cult that is un-American.

I wanted to comment on what gadestring brought up, for it proves that the girls are NOT forced. All three of the scenarios gadestring defined in her post (9/8/2006 12:39 AM) (except the ultimatum/threat part) COMBINED semi-accurately describe EACH of my rebellious sisters. Rebellion and unbecoming contact with boys are always intertwined. “Saving” them, by marrying them, does not work, unless THEY believe it is the RIGHT thing to do. I had several sisters who were rebellious, (one who left, and came back) and they did not get married until they decided to settle down. I remember telling two of them that, as their brother, I was willing to give my life in defense of their virtue. All of the rebellious ones waited until they were over 18, and all but one of the unrebellious ones too, but that is an afterthought. Now, you could offer them all the money in the world to leave the FLDS, and they would not.

In the FLDS, the only reason girls married when they were teenagers, is because THEY wanted to, and making them wait affects no one except them, and their children. Making them wait until 18 means absolutely nothing to the FLDS. It is just a thinly veiled attack on our religion. Just an attempt to LESSEN the dignity of our faith; A way to make our marriages less "good" than yours.
-------------------

According to teenpregnancy.org 34% (820,000) of ALL teenage girls in the U.S. become pregnant. And a report on mafamily.org states that TWO THIRDS of them were to adult men. I am as disgusted as anyone else about teenage pregnancy to unwed mothers, or any sex without marriage. And I think it is ALWAYS the mans responsibility. But MARRIAGE by teenagers is rarely, if ever, attacked, unless it is associated with religious polygamy.

atari-In the FLDS, there is no urgency to marry at any age. The only reason for marriage is for moral FAMILY creation, and ETERNAL happiness. THAT is the goal, that is what we were taught in public and in private by Warren Jeffs, and Rulon Jeffs, and Leroy S Johnson. Sex is not the goal in our religion, an eternal and mortal family that is pleasing to God is. The age of consent to MARRY is 16 in Utah, and most other states. Utah had to ADD that extra religious polygamy persecuting law requiring the GOVERNMENT to approve marriages under 18. THAT is the law that Rodney Holm was convicted of. MARRIAGE to a girl 10 years his junior. And of course they couldnt convict him of that without proving they were married, which convicted him of bigamy also. Had there NOT been a MARRIAGE ceremony, that case would not have lasted a day.

I will acknowledge that statutory rape should be more widely prosecuted, IF there is no wedding, IF the parents do not approve, and IF the girl does not want to marry. The cases you speak of do not fit that bill, in the least. The monogomist relations that do fit that criteria are NEVER prosecuted. IF YOU will acknowlege that Polygamy, in and of itself, is not abuse, then you might start to see. I still would bet nickels to $20 bills that "Jane Doe" [Elissa] has had a thousand times much more pressure to testify against Uncle Warren than she ever did from him to get married.

The thing I dont understand, from my prospective, is the cloudy headed assumption that girls lose their freedom if they become wives and mothers. Are you not free now? For every Caroline Blackmore Jessop, there are 400 women like my mother, free to leave, but have less than a zero desire to. I know that many of the certified teachers, accountants, and registered nurses in the FLDS had both a college education and a career AFTER getting married and having children. And I bet even YOU would agree that raising children is the greatest career in the world.

gad-The law of chastity is the same as it was as taught by Uncle Rulon, and Uncle Roy, but the law is not as absolute as you state. Like food, libido can do more harm than good, if not self regulated. All I was ever taught was constraint is to the man, and not necessarily to the woman.

Brigham Young said: "The man that enters into this order by the prompting of passion, and not with a view to honor God and carry out his purposes, the curse of God will rest upon him, and that which he seems to have will be taken from him and given to those that act according to principle. Remember it." (JD 9:36)

As for child bearing, I guess I cannot reason with the idea that anyone would NOT want to bring Gods children to earth. One of my mothers had over 16 and she often lamented not having more!

Atari, and gad-The age difference is not new in "Christian" monogomy either. You just put blinders on instead of facing it. The only thing that has changed is YOUR society, where marriage is not necessary first.The truth is there have been very very few marriages at all in the last 4 years. Candi and Ruth [and Elissa] were both married previously, under the direction of Uncle Rulon. Though the ceremonies were performed by Uncle Warren. fttc keeps saying that Uncle Roy, and Uncle Rulon said they wouldn't do it anymore, but they married under 18's WAY WAY more than Uncle Warren has in the last 4 years.

Atari- Your argument is based on the argument that Polygny in and of itself is abusive to women, which is bogus. It is fact that before the Roman Empire, All societies practiced it, all the way back to Adam.

Atari-Your background, and the drive by media, makes your skin crawl when it comes to girls and Warren Jeffs. I can understand that. You have very little more respect for a great man named Leroy S Johnson. But ultimately it is a fight between truth and lies, for me.

Atari-What I was saying was that you had no interest in us, or our religion, before you saw us in the news, and the news only reports through the eyes of "mainstream" Americans, and get their information from apostates. You could not fathom a man having a dozen wives and that being a "moral" thing to do. SO you think you hold the moral high ground before you read past the headline. True?

Leroy S Johnson was a very kind, revered, and magnanimous leader of the FLDS church. He died in 1986. 99% of the people who are feeding the media now about how terrible Warren Jeffs is hold Uncle Roy in very high regard. They claim that our religion has been hijacked by Warren Jeffs, or some other man. But if you had read the headlines (And there were quite a few) back in Uncle Roy’s day, you would probably have the same opinion of him as you have of Warren Jeffs. There were people on food stamps in Uncle Roy’s day. There were young men working on construction sites. There were Jessop’s marrying Barlow’s. There were accidental deaths among children in his day. He taught the "one man" rule in his day. There were many men 'kicked out' in his day. And (for you the most appalling) there were definitely girls under 18 getting married to older men in his day.

I contend that these were acceptable and GOOD things in the sight of God. AND benefit innocent children.The religion has not changed, only people and the opposition has. This is the difference between truth, and lie, for me.

atari-How did you hear about the large houses? And why did you become so involved? The bogus news. But you still feel like the anti-polygamy laws are just, and that our religion is bogus. That is what I am saying. I am not saying you should agree that it is the right way. I am just saying that those who are giving you your information of MORE marriages, and other "terribleness" by Warren still think rather highly of Uncle Roy. I am saying they cannot have it both ways. I have more respect for the 5 of you who never knew Uncle Roy or Warren than for the other 5000 who did, (OK, slight exaggeration) and still hate him. There is no in between for me. If it was true then, it is true now.

.atari-I don’t know if I want to explain. You seem sinister to me; pretending to be curious, but only far enough to use the info to call in the military. Phishing is what they call it. Besides, it is just about the difference between me and others who are on my side as far as freedom of marriage, but are on your side in hating Warren Jeffs. It has nothing to do with you.

fttc-I have known Warren Jeffs very well, for a long time. My defense of him is not blind. Do you not want the FLDS people to STOP following him? Your un-hatred for him doesn’t go that far does it?

4:03(silicon wafers)-I do not know what Uncle Roy said to individuals in private meetings, but I know what Uncle Rulon did. I am not sidestepping, I just hold what Uncle Rulon did in higher esteem than what Winston has spread around since his apostacy. That is simple, and obvious. Question all you want. but dont try to force, or even expect anyone else to.

atari said-"If Pedophilia and Abandonment of children is not a tenant of your faith, don't embrace it, encourage it, practice it, allow it." I dont, and neither does Warren Jeffs. Your sources of otherwise are tainted by lies.

mugs-Despite what you have heard, there has been no "date" given. For even the angels in heaven know not the time. But there have been prophesies. And none of them will go unfulfilled. My religion is as plausible as yours, if not more so. I do want to see you with our Savior in the Millenial Reign, and I believe all that can purify themselves of sin can be there. I make no claim to be already worthy. Who can? Also dont believe these lies that Uncle Roy thought President Young was "off his rocker"

mugs-Just so you dont think I deny the truth, I give a word about the April 2004 exodus prophesy. It was invented by some anti-FLDS. We found out about it the same way you did, by noticing the Cameras, and reading the paper. Same with the Y2K, the 2002 Olympics, and the old "gather at the garden", and "gather at Berry Knoll" stuff.

Fact: Warren Jeffs has never said he would not be caught.
Fact: If Warren Jeffs was wearing shorts and T-shirt I definately excuse him because he was in hiding from religious persecution.
Fact: It is O.K. for the FLDS to own red cars. It is bright red clothing that is taboo.
Fact: Girls do wear pants quite often, but usually under the dress. Besides, it was a disguise also.
Fact: Warren Jeffs used an assumed name to buy his contact lenses. He had no illegal ID

Fact: Leroy S Johnson was imprisoned in 1953, John Y Barlow was imprisoned in 1944, John Taylor died in hiding from the "law", Brigham Young was put in jail in 1875, Joseph Smith in 1838, and in 1844 when an armed mob killed him and his brother, for which no one was prosecuted. ALL FOR LIVING THEIR RELIGION. It is amazing in this society today, when harlotry, adultery, sodomy, and abortion, are all considered rights to the people. But if someone engages in performing a marriage for Religious reasons it becomes a crime so bad you can attain to the FBI top ten most wanted criminals.

Fact: This "underage" rule is only applied to polygamy, it is far more rampant among monogomists, yet ignored (and there is rarely a marriage.) Admit it, you only want the girls to wait until 18 because you hope they might "get smart" and leave. 12 out of the 13 of my married sisters were over 18. And They felt it a burden to wait!

Fact: There is has never been, or ever will be fear of Warren Jeffs forcing women or men to be FLDS, no one will leave just because he was put in jail.I am very grateful that Uncle Warren is somewhat safe. Please Keep up the heavy armed guards, there are men who have threatened his life. If it were possible, I would gladly take Warren Jeffs place behind bars. Gladly!

I just wonder what will happen if they find him innocent. Will the facts, or will public outcry decide his fate? What new charges will they file? What new law will they create? Thou shalt not be FLDS in the USA? (like they did in MO in 1830's and the Utah Territory in 1880's)

fttc- the FLDS do not communicate because they are not believed. It is rather pointless. The anti-FLDS are the REASON the FLDS are in the news.

OAS-I have heard stories of girls as young as 13 getting married, but that hasn’t happened since (long before my father was born). The youngest girl I know of getting married in my lifetime is 14, and that was extremely rare and under very special circumstaces. Many girls were "forced" to wait until they were 18 or older. In fact THE OVERWHELMING MAJORITY of girls have waited until at least 18.

I grew up FLDS, and I noticed that the girls who married young were amazingly sweet and mature, and every girl I knew wanted to get married long before they were married, even Candi and Ruth [and even Elissa]. I saw them both when they were happily married. It was a desire for divorce and pressure from Flora, Pennie and other "activists", that created their claim of being forced.

That is a claim "after the fact". (meaning: I thought it was a wonderfully good thing to do at the time, but now that I left, I have discovered how dumb I used to be and must have been forced) They chose just like my sisters did, my mothers did, and everyone else did. No one is forced.

OAS- I really appreciate your desire to understand. To answer your question of "are there any other choices?" and "The Prophet" has a revelation as to who the Lord wants a girl to marry, is this correct?"I can answer your questions together. The choices in a girls life are not "other", I have never met a girl, in the FLDS or out, that did not want to get married at some point. That POINT is the key. SHE decides that point. In the FLDS we believe that dating is guessing, and often results in promiscuity. It is also unneccessary, the Prophet can guide you to what God wants, and the man who can bless you. Sometimes the girl has been impressed who she should marry, sometimes her parents were, but girls do not get married in the FLDS until they decide they want to, their parents decide it is in her best interest, and then they go and ask the Prophet, and they all agree on who. Believe me, we love our children as much as you do or anyone else does.There have been cases of girls saying no to the Prophet's choice, and there have been cases of the parents saying no to the marriage because they did not feel right about it. When that is the case, the marriage does not happen and they try again another day. They are not threatened with damnation or dismissed from the community. I ask you, what is more important to you, your career or your child? What would you choose?

Seemed rather frustrated didnt I?

Another Letter from Russia

AN OPEN LETTER TO THE CONSTITUTION PARTY OF UTAH

Greetings you !
Honourable:
- State Party Chairman - Sir Frank Fluckiger,
- State Vice Chair - Sir David Perry,
- Secretary - Madam Judith C. Brown,
- Washington County Chair - Sir David T. Hinton

I did open your official web-site on the Internet.Your wonderful banner is:"Honour
God ! Defend the Family ! Restore the Republic !

"That is why I do respectfully ask you to look at the current situation in Texas. After the organized military attack against the peaceful religious community of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints in El Dorado, TX, the government of Texas:

- did invade and did defile the FLDS Holy Temple;
- did destroy the FLDS families and did put the all FLDS children under the so-called "state custody":
- did destroy absolutely the great USA Constitution and the Bill about Rights, the FLDS religious liberty and the civil rights.

The government of Texas organized their military attack after the false telephone report of black racist extremist woman from other state. The government and police did not find and did not confirm any cases of abuse or any crimes in the "Yearning For Zion" FLDS ranch.The government of Texas did start the organized genocide against the FLDS Church:

- anti-White;
- anti-Mormon;
- anti-FLDS.

Today I - have - read very good book. It is "Statecraft" by Baroness Margaret Thatcher. She dedicated that her book in the memory and in the honour of the USA President Ronald Reagan. Yes, USA President Ronald Reagan was wonderful man. He did destroy the USSR - the Empire of Evil. He did brign the freedom for my country, for my family and for myself personally. Millions of people in the Eastern Europe and in the former USSR do respect the President Reagan's noble name much.The very sad fact that in modern America the government of Texas does realize the absolutely freely the Communist policy, methodology and the genocide. It was the government military terrorist attack against the peaceful and very religious children and women.
I shall be absolutely honest with you. I have had the several telephone conversations with Mrs. Naomi Jeffs, the FLDS - Church Prophet's wife, and with Mr. David K. Zitting, the Hildale city Mayor. They known well today from the USA Internet mass - media. They are most loyal FLDS people. I can testify from the all my heart before the divine Face of the God that the FLDS people are the most peaceful, the most humble, the most religious, the most patriotic and the most conservative people in the world. I do very respectfully ask you and the Constitution Party of Utah to use all your efforts and all your influence to:

- stop the genocide against FLDS people from the government of Texas;
- liberate the FLDS children and re-unite FLDS families immediately, as soon as possible;
- stop the religious prosecution against the FLDS people.

I do very respectfully ask you to rise up for the Ensign of Truth and Liberty.Please, do not put this my letter in "Trash" folder. That will be the very simple thing to delete my letter. But nobody will be able to "delete" the tears of the FLDS children and women. I ask noble USA President George Washington to be my witness from the Heavens. I ask President George Washington to be the witness against you if you will do nothing for the religious liberty and the civil rights of the FLDS people in the state of Texas.I do pray the Most High Almighty God to give you wisdom and strength to continue to fight for the great USA Constitution actually.

GOD BLESS AMERICA !
Yours truly and sincerely,

Yaroslav A. Kazmin (Voronezh - city, central Russia).

Letter from Russia to Canadian Prime Minister

Your Excellency,Honourable SirPrime Minister of Canada,

Dear Mister STEPHEN HARPER !Greetings You !

The USA newspapers and Internet mass - media, for example, on the:http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,5143,700225992,00.htmldid inform tha the Canadian attorney and officials have plans to arrest the members of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (the FLDS). As the supporter and friend of the FLDS people I do very respectfully ask Your Excellency to not allow the religious prosecution in your own country - in Free Canada. The FLDS Church today is the most original and identity Mormon Church, which does follow the authentic doctrines of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Juniour - who was the founder and the first Prophet of Mormon religion.

Yes, the FLDS Church does follow the Biblical laws about marriage. The FLDS Church strongly believes that it is absolutely necessary to keep the "Law of Abraham" - the celestial plural marriage. That does not mean absolutely that the FLDS people do not obey the civil laws - the laws of the land.The "Church" and the "State" are absolutely separated. That is why the FLDS polygamy does not broke the laws of country. The celestial plural marriage is the absolutely private religious ceremony for FLDS people. The FLDS people, that is why, do not broke the country laws against polygamy.Forefather Abraham, the father of nations, did follow the laws and the orders of the celestial plural marriage also.

When Warren Steed Jeffs was sustained as the FLDS Prophet and President he did call his FLDS people to be absolutely pure. He did ex-communicate many people who do not follow the Biblical laws, who were wicked and immoral. The ex-communicated people, the apostates, did organize the great company against President Warren Steed Jeffs. They did use only the falsehood and the libel against him.The so-called "mainstream" "Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints" in Salt - Lake - City, Utah, USA did reject the Biblical law of Abraham in 1890 year. From that time it secretly use the money and the evil people to work against the followers of the "Law of Abraham". That Church, the Utah officials and the apostates do prosecute today the religious liberty and the civil rights of the FLDS people.

When the pagans occupied the ancient Judea they did not allow to Judean people to teach their children about religion, they did not allow Judeans to follow the religious laws. Today the Americans do absolutely similar things against the FLDS people. The government of Texas organized the military attacks against the peaceful "Yearning For Zion" FLDS community in El Dorado, Texas. The officials did defile the FLDS Holy Temple and did kidnap all FLDS children. The all kidnapped FLDS children today are under the so-called "state custody". The authorities do not allow parents to visit their own children.That is why I do very respectfully ask Your Excellency to protect the religious liberty and the civil rights of the FLDS people in Canada.

Please, allow the FLDS people to live in peace in their old Mormon religioun.With the best regards,

Yours very respectfully and truly,with the great hope on Your help for the FLDS people,

Yaroslav A. Kazmin (Voronezh city,central Russia).

The Cult

There is a cult so sinister that the leaders would sacrifice the lives and welfare of children to accomplish their goals, and the death of the leaders of their opposition would not satisfy them. One where honesty means nothing, and lurid and salacious stories are the order of the day. They are addicted to hatred and fear.
I am talking about the cult of anti-FLDS.

Dictionary.com includes these definitions for the word “cult”
2. “an instance of great veneration of a ideal, or thing as manifested by a body of admirers.”
The anti-FLDS cult members gather often to spread rumors amongst themselves, those with the most outrageous are the most celebrated. Then they all march to the same rumors.

4. “a group or sect bound together by veneration of the same thing, ideal etc” The Only thing that brings these cult members together is their common hatred for the FLDS doctrine and/or leaders

10. “attracting a group of devotees”
Some members of the cult have become converted through propaganda, yet they are active members; writing books, becoming “experts” on television reports, and spending much of their time as activists with the government and media.

The ultimate goal of the people in this cult is to destroy the belief system and church that many of the cult members were born and raised in. Most of them have close family members who chose to stay in the church rather than join their cult, and this is what angers the cult members the very most. It is what motivates them to misrepresent their own lives, repeat salacious slander, and vilify not their family members, but the church and leaders that their family members chose to follow. They do not want to accept the fact that their family members made a conscious decision to stay with the church, so they insult their decision and refer to them as ‘brainwashed’, zombies, victims, and prisoners etc. Because the cult members are so angry and hate the church so much their family members try to avoid them when possible. This also enrages the cult members.

The cult members always center their hatred and efforts on the current leader of the church, regardless of who that leader is. If Warren Jeffs died today, his successor would become enemy number one. Before Warren Jeffs, Rulon Jeffs was enemy number one, and long before him Joseph Smith was enemy number one. It is the faith of the people and their devotion to the doctrines of the religion that the cult members really hate, even if that is not what they tell you.

The cult has an extensive missionary program that centers in propaganda media reports, books, websites and public outcries to government officials. The truth is irrelevant in the court of public opinion. There are millions of sympathizers for the cult, but if they knew and understood the truth, they would have very few. This is the significant difference between the hatred that unites the people in this cult and others, as the church they are addicted to has no desire to fight over its public image (as even this is against the religion), and the cult members take full advantage of this fact.

Anyone who has read the Book of Mormon can see a direct parallel to now. Whenever the church among the Nephites went through a reformation, some of the people became bitter because they wanted to lower the standards in the church rather than live up to them. They ‘escaped’ and ran to the Lamanites, where the standards were non existent anyway. Through misrepresented half truths, outright lies, and sympathetic pleas, they convinced the Lamanites to go to war against their own former people. The apostates would lead the Lamanites to war trying to force the Nephites to bow to them and give up their religion. When the truth was finally realized, lives and homes of many innocent people were destroyed.

Silent and lone

Silent and lone, silent and lone!
Where, tell me where, are my little ones gone?
That used to play about my knee
With noisy mirth and boisterous glee?
Who littered the carpets and misplaced the chairs
And scattered their playthings all unawares

Who called for their supper with eager shout
And while they were getting ran in and out
Who kept the apples and nuts from spoiling
And never saved jackets and pants from soiling
Silent and lone, silent and lone!
Where, tell me where are my little ones gone?

There are no faces to wash tonight
No little troubles for Mother to right
No little blue eyes to be sung to sleep
No little playthings to put up to keep
No little garments to hang on the rack
No little tales to tell or nuts to crack

No little trundle bed brimful of rolic
Calling for momma to settle the frolic
No little soft lips to press me with kisses
OH! Such as sad, lovely evening as this is
No little voices to shout with delight
Good night, dear Momma, good night, good night!

Silent the house is, no little ones here
To startle a smile or chase back a tear

-by a Short Creek Mother
(Truth 1953)

What about me?

When do I get to go home?

Where is my mother?

I have to sleep here again?

Mother, where are you?

O Judge, can't I go home?

I am sorry if I did wrong!

I promise I'll be good!


You're the police, help us. Help me get my mother back. She has done nothing wrong!

Liar, Liar

Sorry I have been really busy and away from internet access.

Here is an excellent post from, Grits for Breakfast
It proves that the FLDS will lie, and cheat.

"In order to stay with their children, 26 more women announced they were minors, boarded the bus with their kids"

I know you wouldn't lie about such things, would you?

Feminine Feminists

The class was American history, the teacher was Warren Jeffs, and the subject was suffrage for women.

“Are men more important than women in the kingdom of God?” he asked us. “If you think so raise your hand”. As we twisted in our seats looking around to see who would raise their hands I was surprised. The lone person in the room with their hand up was my sister. I don’t know if anyone else thought the same and were bashful, but I certainly didn’t.


(photo: Susan B. Anthony)

Despite what some people might think, women and men are different. When a child comes into the world, that child comes through a mother. The bond between a mother and child is one a father cannot know. Mothers are usually the center of the universe to their children. I envied that bond with my children and their mother. There is no bond like the one I have with my mother here and I can only imagine the one I had with my Mother in heaven.

The first womens association in America, and perhaps in the world, was created on March 17, 1842 in Nauvoo Illinois. It was called The Women’s Relief Society. It was created to “provoke the brethren to good works in looking to the wants of the poor—searching after objects of charity, and in administering to their wants—to assist by correcting the morals and strengthening the virtues of the community." (Minutes of the Female Relief Society of Nauvoo, 17 Mar. 1842) The founding officers of the society were the wives of Mormon prophet Joseph Smith.

Some people think that if polygyny was decriminalized, than society would crumble, but I think very much the opposite. For although it is true that if every man had two wives, then there wouldn’t be enough women to go around, but that would not necessarily be a bad thing. If polygny was not despised as it is, then women would have more ability to find a good husband if that is what she wanted to do. And could do what she wanted to do outside the home without worrying about leaving her children with strangers.

As is the case in many families in and out of the FLDS, women have interests outside of the family.
Brigham Young said:
“We believe that women are not only to sweep houses, wash dishes, make beds and raise babies, but they should stand behind the counter, study law or physic, or become good bookkeepers and be able to do the business in any counting house, and all this to enlarge their sphere of usefulness for the benefit of society at large. In following these things they but answer the design of their creation” (JD 13:61)

Now in monogamous only society (which is really perpetual polygamy), if a lady wants to have a family and a job, then she has to hire a non-family daycare to tend and teach her children while she is gone. But in Polygyny, that is not a problem because there is always a mother in the house. Most FLDS ladies have no desire to leave their children at all and would gladly mother all of her husband’s children.

Then there are men. Gather any group of men anywhere, and put them in a room, and swear them to secrecy from their wives, and ask them if they think they could handle Polygyny. 99% would say yes. But so many men are irresponsible, and so many men are unfaithful. There will be much more women than men in the highest heaven. Polygyny is much harder on the man, than on the women, for he must raise his esteem with the ladies to qualify the respect that is necessary to be the head of his dualistic family. Men who engage in Polygyny must be BETTER men than those who only have one wife to report to. It would make for better men all around, especially if men, who were unfaithful to their wife or wives, could see how easy she could leave and find a better one.

Mark Twain visited Utah and wrote, (jokingly): "The man that marries one of them has done an act of Christian charity, and the man that marries sixty of them has done a deed of open-handed generosity so sublime that the nations should stand uncovered in his presence and worship in silence."

In 1870 the Polygynous Utah territory became the first place in the world to allow women to vote at the ballot. In 1875 a petition signed by 22,626 women in Utah asked Congress to repeal the 1862 Morrill anti-bigamy act. But to "preserve the purity of women" the ability for women to vote was removed by the anti-polygamy Edmunds-Tucker act of 1887.

When the Supreme Court upheld the overturning of the First Amendment in 1879, the New York Times editorial insulted women by saying: “The woman is naturally the weaker vessel, as St Peter has declared, and has oftener been coerced into polygamous marriage than she has sought it of her own free will” And then as if women were incapable of speaking for themselves: “Delegations of Mormon women, assiduously “coached” by the Mormon lobby, have waited upon the wife of the President, beseeching her to use her influence wit her husband so that the law may not be enforced to their disadvantage”

It matters less how you feel about polygny than it does about the freedom others should have to the lifestyle of their choice. Women should have the right to choose polygyny. The best women on earth, including my mother, have and will continue to exercise that right whether you allow them to or not.

My sister now knows personally that motherhood is every bit as important as fatherhood, and Patriarchal Priesthood is only as great as Matriarchal leadership allows it to be. Women do look to men for leadership, but men always look to women for home. That is what Warren Jeffs taught us.

Better Info than Me

I found A much better place to read about the FLDS
The new website called "Truth Will Prevail"

Top 5 Lies about the FLDS

Lie #1 Girls are forced to marry
No person was ever forced to get married. That is so ridiculously untrue it should not even need to be discussed, but it is so universally believed that it is used to justify the bigotry that exists and the genocide that is being attempted in Texas. No one is forced to do anything in the FLDS after they reach an age to be accountable for themselves, and that is long before marriage. Marriage is the greatest and most important step in life, and is revered more within the FLDS church than it is outside the church. The women who have left the church and say they were once forced to get married are only saying it to get attention and appease the preconceived perceptions of the general public. I feel sorry for those who declare this after they leave. The memories of their whole lives have change to having been forced, abused, and miserable. I do not doubt that they are miserable now, because you cannot lie as they do and be happy. To blame their misery on their former church is ridiculous. It brings me to pity them. There is as much freedom in the FLDS as anywhere else. You always have the freedom to leave if you want. To say they mourn the loss when one leaves is an understatement, but no one is forced to stay. If you do not want to obey the FLDS gospel, feel free to leave; just don’t try to force those who want to stay to leave too. OK? They can choose too can't they? Let them choose to believe what they want, and get on with your own life.

Lie #2 The FLDS exists by pillaging the government for welfare.
This is so absolutely untrue it is laughable. I first heard the term “bleeding the beast” by reading the newspaper, it did not come from the FLDS. The fact that some of the FLDS people have received Social Security, food stamps, and medical benefits from the government is true, but never did the leaders tell the people to do it. In fact the opposite is true. The leaders often recommended staying off government aid. In Texas there was no one on any assistance at all unless you count Social Security. Until now. To think that children were being born for the purpose of taking your tax money is ridiculously stupid. The State governments have been meticulous in investigating all assistance in Hildale and Colorado City, probably more than in any other community in the U.S. because of the continuous accusations, but despite the assumptions there has not even been one case of welfare fraud charged against an FLDS family.

Lie #3 The FLDS do not educate their children
The FLDS believe, as all civil people do, that children should be educated, and that to, by their parents and whomever their parents want them to be educated by. Girls are given the same opportunity as boys, and I believe that there are no better teachers in the world than those in the FLDS church. More girls graduated from high school than boys. And never are the children pulled out of school because they don’t want them to be too smart. Education is the most important thing for everyone on earth, and you can be educated without going to liberal College. The most important education you can get is how to get back to heaven. We are taught that obedience creates happiness, but that does not mean the children are forced to believe as their parents do. They want them to believe as they do, they teach them to believe, but they do what they want with that education. Would you teach your children that what you believe in is wrong? Why would you want the FLDS to?

Lie #4 The FLDS hate black people
We do not hate anyone. We believe that the Negro have just as much right to the salvation of heaven as we do, just not the rights to the priesthood. Joseph Smith said this: “Elder Hyde inquired the situation of the negro. I replied, they came into the world slaves, mentally and physically. Change their situation with the whites, and they would be like them. They have souls, and are subjects of salvation. Go into Cincinnati or any city, and find an educated Negro, who rides in his carriage, and you will see a man who has risen by the powers of his own mind to his exalted state of respectability. The slaves in Washington are more refined than many in high places, and the black boys will take the shine off many of those they brush and wait on” (History of the Church 5:217) (Read by Warren Jeffs in History Class)

We believe that the Negro people are our brothers and sisters, all descendants like we are, of Adam, and Noah. But everyone is given different obstacles to overcome. We believe that all people who are born into this world were put here for the same reason, to obey God. We all will be judged by what we do, what we say, and what we think, according to what we have been taught. We also will be judged by what we teach our children. This is the same no matter where you were born, or what color you are. We believe in freedom for all. We believe we lived before we came to earth, and it is there that we were given our calling. God chose our color, our nationality, and our family not by accident, nor against our will. For the black race, they must overcome the curse they were born with. For us, we must live up to, or overcome our heritage also. The black race cannot be a part of the Priesthood family in this life, but we hope to see as many as will pass their own trials and purify their own lives in the highest heaven too. I believe there will be many.

Lie #5 All people besides those in the FLDS will go to hell
The Savior of the world died on the cross for all of Adams children, and that almost all will go to heaven; Sons of Perdition being the lone exception. All will have the happiness that they earn here, in the next life. They will be happier there then they are here. We believe that there are at least three heavens, or degrees of heaven, and that if you want to go to the highest, you must do what it takes to get there, you must sacrifice all earthly things. To us that is what obedience is. Jesus died so that all will be resurrected and have physical bodies again. And His sacrifice gives us the opportunity to save ourselves through righteousness. You will be just as good, or just as bad, after you die as you are here. You will dwell in heaven with those who you are the most like in character.

Mothers Rule!

He got here red and wrinkled scared and crying

Then she took him up and held him to her breast
And He sure felt safe to know that she was near him

Then he went to sleep and put his fears to rest

It didn't seem to matter what he needed

He could always count on mother to supply
And regardless of his little deeds of mischief

He always found a true love in her eyes.

We ought to say a prayer of thanks for mothers

Creations most unique and precious pearls
Father help us always to remember

That the hand that rocks the cradle rules the world!

She showed him faith and virtue, love and goodness

And how to say his prayers beside his bed
And as he grew from little boy to manhood

She always turned him to his Priesthood head

She taught him all the attributes of greatness

That she knew he'd never learn away from home
And by the time she turned him over to his father

Her hair was gray but her little man was gold

I'd like to say a word of thanks for mothers

Creations most unique and precious pearls
Father help us always to remember

that the hand that rocks the cradle rules the world!

Yes the hand that rocks the cradle rules the world!

THIS should be read to every official in America.

Childrens Songs

Mother I Love You

Mother, I love you, Mother, I do,
Father in Heaven has sent me to you.
When I am near you, I love to hear you
Singing so softly that you love me too.

Mother, I love you, Mother, I do,
I want to help you because I love you.
I want to mind you, I want to find you
Happy and Smiling because I love you.
Mother, I love you, I love you, I do!


I Have Two Little Hands

I have two little hands folded snuggly and tight
They are tiny and weak, yet they know what is right
During all the long hours till daylight is though
There are plenty indeed for my two hands to do

Kind Father I thank Thee for two little hands
And I ask you to bless them ‘til each understands
That children can only be happy all day
When two little hands have learned how to obey


Can A Little Child Like Me

Can a little child like me, thank my Father fittingly
Yes, o yes be good and true, Patient, kind in all you do
Love the Lord and do your part, learn to say with all your heart
Father we thank Thee, Father we thank Thee
Father in heaven, we thank Thee


Jesus Wants Me for a Sunbeam

Jesus wants me for a sunbeam, to shine for Him each day
In every way try to please Him, at home, at school, at play
A sunbeam, a sunbeam, Jesus wants me for a sunbeam
A sunbeam, a sunbeam, I’ll be a sunbeam for Him

Jesus wants me to be loving, and kind to all I see
Showing how pleasant and happy his little ones can be
A sunbeam, a sunbeam, Jesus wants me for a sunbeam
A sunbeam, a sunbeam, I’ll be a sunbeam for Him

I’ll be a sunbeam for Jesus, I can if I but try
Showing him moment by moment to live with Him on high
A sunbeam, a sunbeam, Jesus wants me for a sunbeam
A sunbeam, a sunbeam, I’ll be a sunbeam for Him


Kindness Begins with Me

I want to be kind to everyone for that is right you see
So I say to myself remember this kindness begins with me!

(Please add more in comments)

FLDS vs Forced Marriage

Here is the central theme to the FLDS marriage system, mind you this is from a revelation from our Father in Heaven to the Prophet Joseph Smith, This is our Lord speaking:

"All covenants, contracts, bonds, obligations, oaths, vows, performances, connections, associations, or expectations, that are not made and entered into and sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise of him who is anointed, both as well for time and for all eternity, and that too most holy, by revelation and commandment through the medium of mine anointed, whom I have appointed on the earth to hold this power…are of no efficacy, virtue, or force in and after the resurrection from the dead; for all contracts that are not made unto this end have an end when men are dead" (D&C 132:7)

"And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife by my word,… by him who is anointed, unto whom I have appointed this power and the keys of this priesthood…it shall be done unto them, in time, and through all eternity; and shall be of full force when they are out of the world" (D&C132:19)

"Gave instructions to try those persons who were preaching, teaching, or practicing the doctrine of plurality of wives; for, according to the law, I hold the keys of this power in the last days; for there is never but one on the earth at a time on whom the power and its keys are conferred; and I have constantly said no man shall have but one wife at a time, unless the Lord directs otherwise" (Joseph Smith DHC 6:46)

"Everything the GOD gives us is lawful and right; and it is proper that we should enjoy His gifts and blessings whenever and wherever He is disposed to bestow; but if we should seize upon those same blessings and enjoyments without law, without revelation, without commandment, those blessings and enjoyments would prove cursing's and vexations in the end, and we should have to lie down in sorrow and wailings of everlasting regret." (Joseph Smith DHC 5:135)

The FLDS marriage system is really quite awesome to us. It is exactly opposite of what you would expect by watching the news. All of my married sisters would tell you as they often did me, that they would never want to get married any other way. I definitely would never have it any other way. Imagine, not even having to worry about finding a good mate, but just trusting in the power of Prayer, and inspiration from God; at times revealed to us directly, but always through the Prophet’s direction and authority. How can you make a mistake if God does it?

There is no trial and error in the FLDS. I never dated, I only went to a few dances, and the only girls I really associated with after high school were my sisters. My first kiss was at my wedding ceremony, and it was awesome!

In the FLDS, the men are not to solicit for wives, or court (unless by direction or permission), and the girls are not to respond to the advances of boys or men, but all are to be anxious to do their duty, and remember to pray always. I have sisters and brothers who were directly inspired about their marriages. The rest of us just put ourselves in the hands of the Prophet and prayed that God would direct him in our behalf. There is no greater joy than to have God speak in your behalf.

The men are officially turned in for marriage when they are ordained as Elders, and stay turned in through purity, kindness, loyalty, and obedience. If a man leaves, or loses his Priesthood through sin, his wife or wives do not have to go with him. If they are married by the Priesthood, and they lose the Priesthood, then the marriage is void. That is the truth, and you can see the bitter ex members spin it all sorts of different ways.

The bitter people who leave say that the FLDS people live in fear of the tyrannical renegade prophet. Honestly the only people who live in fear are those who secretly do wrong and are trying to hide it, or those who do not want to be there anyway. The rest of the people are trying to mind their own business and work out their own salvation. Many of the people who "escape" (leave) get really mad because those who stay have no desire to "escape" with them and hate the leader as they do. So they heave all their fury at the government, to "do something" to stop this "terrible mad man". It is the same accusation made many times before, all the way back to Joseph Smith.

I just want to tell you, Warren Jeffs is the most humble man I have ever met who is still alive. He has been the leader only since late 2002; but the FLDS marriage system is much older. My grandparents were married this way in the early 40's, and even Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, John Taylor, and John Woolly directed many marriage arrangements. Everything Warren Jeffs does, he does to help and improve the people. Even I who have been sent out, it was done to improve me, and the people I left behind. Although it definitely has been painful, I feel it was the best thing to happen to help me, if not to my family. Everything is a growing experience. I know it hurt him to need to do it, and I take full responsibility for it.


The stories of forced marriage have been in the news since the beginning of time. Just read the New York Times archives back in the 1870's. People assume that the ladies have to be forced, for as they would say, "What girl that is not forced would ever want to be a plural wife?" I know a few. No one is forced to marry at any age in the FLDS. The girls go to their good fathers when THEY want to get married. If he and their mother approve, then they would go see the Prophet. Even after they seek the prophets council they have the option to say who they want to marry, or they can say yes or no to the man the prophet suggests without any recourse whatsoever. I saw it many times. The FLDS people seek to be inspired from heaven in all things, and most especially when it comes to this, the most important act in life. In heaven there is only peace. There is never force, ever. It is the opposite of the FLDS religion to force. We were taught that the devil was cast out of heaven because he wanted to force us to be good.

An few hours before our wedding, my fiance and I went for a drive together, and she talked while I listened. Finally I got up the courage to ask her, "Will you marry me?" I realized by the look on her face that it was a strange question. "Of course", she said, smiled wide, and went back to talking.

This is the free will in the FLDS church. It makes it much more comfortable around others. Little of this "what if" happens. We believe God is doing it, sometimes by revelation to ourselves, but always through the inspired Priesthood. We either believe, or don’t.

FLDS_Guy speaks out

[I want to thank the author of Muslimmatters.org for notifying me of this post]

"I’m an FLDS male member currently living in Colorado City, and I would like to try to dispel some of the horrendous rumors that abound about our people.
We absolutely DO NOT condone child abuse. This crap about “breaking” babies is just that — absolute complete lies. I would immediately call 911 if I witnessed anyone doing that to a child. Our children are considered the most precious gifts that God gives to us, and are to be treated as such.

"Young girls are not forced into marriage. They are asked if they have anyone in mind, and can say “no” to a marriage if they want. We do not believe that a girl must be married young. Most are married over the age of 18.

"We’re not a bunch of brainwashed dunces. We believe in hard work, learning as much as possible, and educating ourselves in every area that will be useful to us. For example, I’m a website and software programmer. We highly value education, and I’m sure you people out their know the dire state the country’s public education system is in.

"The women are not held captive at home only to be abused and commanded by the husband. That’s complete crap. We’ve got loads of women who work jobs. I’d bet about 1/3 of the EMT’s in our town are women. Nearly all of them have their own cell phones, even the unmarried teenagers. It’s not like their held with no communication.

"Teenage boys are NOT routinely dumped on the road to reduce competition for brides. They leave on their own, and their parents yearn and love and feel after them. This whole “lost boys” thing was a thing that Dan Fischer, a bitter ex-member came up with. These boys who have left consider it an insult to them.

"Another thing that makes me laugh is this so called “bleeding of the beast” we allegedly practice. Why, bless my heart, I’ve never heard of the term except from people quoting how they heard about it from Flora Jessop or someone like that. I’ve NEVER heard about it from one of our members, and especially not from the leaders. I’m not on any welfare, I pay taxes, and I work hard for what I get.

"Now, there have been people in our religion who have abused it to try to gratify their desires. This is wrong for them to do so. If a 16 year old girl is being beaten by her husband, that ABSOLUTELY should be investigated, but why raid an entire community? We do not claim that every single member is perfect, but what religion does? The may very well be, and have been, abusers, and where found, they are turned over to the law enforcement.

I suggest that anyone who wishes to learn more of the truth, you can visit fldsview.blogspot.com (I’m not the author of it, btw).Also, check out http://www.captivefldschildren.org/

Our religion teaches peace, love, and forgiveness. We’re all God’s children, and He is just. We believe in working through kindness instead of force, and that love should be the guiding factor in all we do."

He answers questions over there, so check it out.

All Outsiders are Evil?

“The great Jehovah contemplated the whole of the events connected with earth, pertaining to the plan of salvation, before it rolled into existence…He knew of the fall of Adam, the iniquities of the antediluvians, of the depth of iniquity that would be connected with the human family, their weakness, and strength,… their righteousness and iniquity; He comprehended the fall of man, and his redemption… He knows the situation of both the living and the dead, and has made ample provision for their redemption, according to their several circumstances, and the laws of the kingdom of God, whether in this world, or in the world to come.” (TPJS pg 220)

“The plans of Jehovah are not so unjust, the statements of holy writ so visionary, nor the plan of salvation for the human family so incompatible with common sense; at such proceedings God would frown with indignance, angels would hide their heads in shame, and every virtuous, intelligent man would recoil.If human laws award to each man his deserts, and punish all delinquents according to their several crimes, surely the Lord will not be more cruel than man, for He is a wise legislator, and His laws are more equitable, His enactments more just, and His decisions more perfect than those of man; and as man judges his fellow man by law, so does God of heaven judge “according to the deeds done in the body.” To say that the heathens would be damned because they did not believe the Gospel would be preposterous, and to say that the Jews would all be damned that do not believe in Jesus would be equally absurd; for “how can they believe on him of whom they have not heard, and how can they hear without a preacher, and how can he preach except he be sent;” consequently neither Jew nor heathen can be culpable for rejecting the conflicting opinions of sectarianism, nor for rejecting any testimony but that which is sent of God [TO THEM ] for as the preacher cannot preach except he be sent, so the hearer cannot believe without the he hear a “sent” preacher, and cannot be condemned for what he has not heard, and being without law, will have to be judged without law.” (TPJS pg 221)

You will be judged by what God sends you here to do, not by what He sends me or anyone else to do. We are all brothers and sisters, His children, whom He loves equally. Our bodies are given life by Him. He gives us the opportunity to become like Him, to CHOOSE to do the right that we were born knowing. The more we do right, the more we will learn better what is right or wrong. When you willingly do wrong, you lose the ability to realize the difference between right and wrong, and eventually you tend to assume that those who are doing right are the ones who are doing wrong.

Even the devil was sent by God to do the work he is doing. The devil is here to prove us before our God. So those who want to destroy the work of life in the FLDS church, who want to stop the religion that Joseph Smith brought forth, that was continued on by John Taylor, John and Lorin Woolley, John Y Barlow, Leroy S Johnson, Rulon Jeffs, and Warren Jeffs. They cannot help but be doing the work of the devil, who is doing the work that God is allowing him to do. But they cannot accomplish their desire to make this religion false, and we hold no ill will toward them personally whatsoever.

We believe in God, the Omnipotent Creator of the Universe, we believe that He was born into this world and died on the cross for our sins, to give us the resurrection and the power to repent. We believe in His justice, and His mercy, that He is the judge of us all, and anytime we blame anyone for what we experience, we blame Him. He loves us, each individually, and He has a reward for us according to our ability to overcome our sins and all the obstacles of life he gives us, a reward far beyond our imaginations.

Keeping Sweet is just that, it is a smile in our trial. It is the effort of prayer, forgiveness, repentance, humility, obedience, and pure love; to never let an outside influence adjust our trust in Him; and to trust Him, completely, absolutely, and without exception. Then we will be worthy to be lifted up at the last day, even you, and even me; Saint, Jew, Gentile, Negro, and Oriental; Buddhist, Muslim, Catholic, Protestant, and Mormon. God loves us without exception, but He will reward us not only by His love for us, but by our ability to love Him enough to trust Him, and obey Him all the time, no matter what. As Warren Jeffs is showing us how to do.

Matthew 5:
"8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.
9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.
10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you."

The FLDS Life

When you are seeking to do the will of God in every area of your life, do you say "what’s wrong with this?" or do you say "what’s right with this?" Choosing the best good, and then seeking to do better, is what the FLDS ideals are. If you are seeking something else, you will eventually get that, but it won’t be nearly as rewarding.

The dress code-
In the FLDS The girls wear full length long sleeve dresses that reach the neckline, do not cut their hair (much), do not wear make-up, and wear long underwear. The boys keep their hair cut short, keep clean shaven, wear long sleeve shirts, full length pants, and wear long underwear. Blood red clothing is to be avoided to respect the Savior. (D&C 133:48) This dress code doesn't make you a good person, but it shows that you "want" to be a good person. The way you want to dress shows who you want to be, and not especially who you are. There are exceptions to the dress code if the need arises (i.e. when in hiding from persecution, or when your work necessitates it.) It is the heart, not especially the details that God sees; though mostly they will be the same thing.

Entertainment-
Entertainment is really education. It can be bad, good, better, or best. The ideal FLDS do not watch television, or go to movies, or listen to “rock” music. You will not be disfellowshipped for doing these things, unless you take on the habits of them. You can see a person’s attitude and the spirit they carry by the way they entertain themselves. All of us tend to take on the spirit of the things we are around, especially if we are around them by choice. God does not want us to be anything but happy, but you can see by what makes you happy the kind of person you are. Uncle Roy’s favorite pastime was reading the scriptures, and he said the more you do it, the better you will like it. We do what interests us the most. But true entertainment is to be a break, not to be our goal. Competition is like appetite, it can be beneficial, but it can also ruin. You do need enough to help yourself, but not so much that you starve someone else.

Education-
Within the FLDS the education of children is paramount. Reading writing and arithmatic are very important, but not the most important education in our lives. Much has been said about the lack of education in the FLDS, but I ask, what is the most important education? Isn’t it how to become like God? The education needed to help one benefit society in the best way possible, including math and science, is important, but not the most important. Everyone becomes a teacher, most especially mothers, and so education is very important for everyone. God is the greatest scientist and the smartest mathematician, He learned these thing somewhere and we want to be like Him. It is strange how many who leave the FLDS claim to the media to have a real short education. It seems that only those who leave have a seventh grade education or less. It is possible they didn't go further, but all education is self learned anyway; no matter how much our parents and teachers try to push us.

Besides, how many doctors do we need compared to farmers? How many lawyers do we need compared to plumbers? How many maids compared to nurses? All will get an education sometime, and the workplace is often the best place to learn a trade. I have always wondered why is it legal for a 16 year old to drive a 10,000 pound pickup truck on the highway, but they cannot legally run a power saw? I graduated from 12th grade at Alta Academy highschool, and then I went to work for someone who had dropped out. Go figure.

To dream the impossible dream, to fight the unbeatable foe
To bear with unbearable sorrow, to run where the brave dare not go
To right the un-rightable wrong, to love pure and chaste from afar
To try when your arms are to weary, to reach the unreachable star

This is my quest to follow that star
No matter how hopeless no matter how far
To fight for the right without question or pause
To be willing to march into hell for a heavenly cause

And I know if I’ll only be true to this glorious quest
That my heart will lie peaceful and calm when I’m laid to my rest
And the world will be better for this
That one man scorned and covered with scars
Still strove with his last ounce of courage
To reach the unreachable star

To reach the unreachable star
Though you know it’s impossibly high
To live with your heart striving upward
To reach the unreachable star

The Crime

A few weeks ago a phone call was made to Child Protective Services. The caller on the phone said in hushed whispers that she was a teenage girl being physically abused and sexually assaulted by her polygamist husband 20 years her senior. She identified herself as a “new” wife of one of the men who was publicly prosecuted for statutory rape in Arizona.

You may think I am speaking about Texas, where a huge raid occurred on the YFZ ranch owned by members of the FLDS church. The place where little children were ripped from their loving parents, and their sacred homes and sacred temple were broken into because of the phone call. But I am not. I am speaking of the same female making the same call to CPS in Arizona ; only the officials in Arizona treated them like human beings.

Having been subject to these numberless hosts of accusations and allegations by bitter ex-members of the FLDS church (and the media toadies who think everything they say is God’s truth) for years, and having done meticulous investigations into abuse, forced marriage, welfare fraud, school funds fraud, etc. that they (the bitter ex-members) claim to be rampant, the state of Arizona has only brought charges of under age marriage and polygamy, because these are the only “crimes” that have ever occurred with sanction of church leaders.

I do not ask anyone to ever turn a blind eye to a phone call where someone may be being abused, NEVER! I would not ask you to do something I would never do. But I do ask, with all sincerity, for you to realize the level of hatred that some former members have of the church most of their own family loves, and know without blinking as I do, that they are obviously behind this. You have probably seen those behind these phone calls on television railing against the "abuses" within the church, she has likely become the star witness against the church. Rozita Swinton, the 33 year old woman in Colorado who made the phone calls did not act alone. She was on the phone with one of the "expert" ex members for over forty hours before the raid, and only when they traced her to Colorado, did this “expert” turn her in to authorities, or even report the abuse she was alledging. Much worse abuse than what was reported to CPS.

As a child I loved to sit at my grandmother’s feet while she told us about her life. The stories she told and the life she lived inspired all of us, and most of my sisters decided to do just like she did. Despite what you hear of overwhelming forced marriage of young girls, I have over a dozen married sisters, and only one was under 18 when she married her sweetheart. The others did not wait because they did not want to get married sooner, but my father, the protective softy that he is, did not want to let them to get married any sooner than he had to.

The life of a lady is not over when she gets married. Marriage is not slavery to my mothers, who both went to College and had jobs after they married my father. They did it because they wanted to, and they only had the children that they wanted to. I am very glad they wanted me.

I ask all of you mothers, is there a greater relationship in your life that the one between you and your child? It should be the greatest, because it is for your child. For me, my mother was second only to God. She represented God to me. She taught me who God was. She taught me how to pray. She taught me to look to my honorable father for direction in my life. She was my first and most favorite teacher. She still is the greatest woman on this earth to me; when I think about the word love, I think about my mother. Every day is Mothers Day to me.

I ask sincerely, should I have not been born? Should I not exist? Should I not have the father and mother that I do? Would the world be a better place had I not been born? Do you not want me to exist? Am I a crime?

You see, my mother was a teenager when I was born. And my father is as good a man as there is on this earth. He is as good or better than yours. Yes we were on food stamps sometimes, yes the government paid for much of our medical care, but is the government wrong for doing it? Am I a fraud? Am I a crime?

CPS would have taken me from my mother and father if this would have happened when I was small. Do you think I would have appreciated it? I would not have been able to grow up with my wonderful family. I would not have been able to sit at my grandmothers feet. I would not have graduated from a highschool where there was no drugs or guns. I would not have been given the choice whether to stay in the Church or leave as I have. Does anyone on the planet think I would be better off now? GOOD HEAVENS NO!